Are You Meeting Your Pet’s REAL Needs? What Every Pet Parent Should Know

Should You Treat Your Pet Like a Child? A Veterinary Psychiatrist on Finding the Right Balance for a Happy, Healthy Pet

I used to worry about people who consider their pets their “children”. Was treating them like humans harming them? Were they making them anxious or frustrated by expecting them to be something they’re not?

I still worry a little, but this episode helped me (and hopefully you!) understand how to find a balance that meets both your needs and your pet’s, so you can truly live happily ever after.

Veterinary psychiatrist Dr. Rachel Malamed joins me to break down:

🔹 Why treating pets like family isn’t the problem—misunderstanding their needs is
🔹 How to respect your pet as an individual rather than forcing them to fit your expectations—or those of friends and family
🔹 How we often misread pet body language (wagging tails ≠ happiness!)
🔹 Why forcing pets outside their comfort zones can backfire
🔹 The real connection between emotional and physical well-being in pets
🔹 How to enrich their lives in ways that truly fulfill them—not just ourselves

This episode will challenge the way you think about your relationship with your pet—and help you build a stronger, healthier bond based on understanding, not assumptions.

📢 Love this episode? Share it with a fellow pet parent and help more animals live their best lives!

To learn more about Dr. Malamed and the resources she shared in the episode, here are some great links: 

Join Dr. Malamed's Pet Psychiatry Hub Pre-Launch Waitlist 

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

Decoding Your Cat book

Decoding Your Dog book

Find Dr.

Quick Update: We’re taking a short break and will be back with a batch of fresh episodes starting August 10! 
In the meantime, binge your way through 100+ past episodes packed with pet-saving sanity—and maybe even solve that one issue that's driving you (and your pet) nuts. 
Catch up, take notes, and we’ll see you soon! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Rethinking Pet Happiness
• 4:06 Understanding Veterinary Psychiatry
• 9:30 Species-Specific Needs and Behaviors
• 14:50 Canine Body Language Misunderstandings
• 22:57 The Myth of "Socializing" Through Flooding
• 29:57 Medical Issues Behind Behavioral Problems
• 36:07 The Guilt Myth and Anthropomorphism
• 41:07 Finding Balance in Pet Parenting

Transcript

Amy Castro: 0:31

Think you're giving your pets the best life just because you shower them with treats, cuddles and cozy beds. What if I told you that what your pet truly needs goes beyond pampering? One of the reasons we rebranded this show as Muddy Paws and Hairballs is to highlight a simple truth Look, dogs need to be dogs and cats need to be cats. So in today's episode, we're diving into what really makes pets happy and mentally healthy, and it's not always what we think. You'll hear from a veterinary psychiatrist with nearly two decades of experience as we explore how to truly respect our pets for the animals that they are, rather than treating them like human babies. If you want a happier, more balanced pet, you're not going to want to miss this conversation. Stay tuned, that's right. There is so much more to giving your pets a great life than just spoiling them with treats and cozy beds. Welcome to Muddy Paws and Hairballs, the podcast. That's all about embracing pets for the animals they truly are.

Amy Castro: 1:25

I'm Amy Castro and today I'm joined by Dr Rachel Malamed, a veterinary psychiatrist with 18 years of experience and one of only about 100 specialists who are board certified by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. She earned her Doctor of Veterinary Medicine from the Ontario Veterinary College in 2005 before moving from Toronto to Los Angeles, where she completed an internship at a specialty and emergency veterinary hospital, followed by three years residency in clinical behavior medicine at UC Davis. Dr Malamed owns a veterinary psychiatry practice in Los Angeles that is dedicated to the physical and emotional well-being of pets. She also serves as a forensic expert witness in legal cases involving animal behavior and has contributed to several leading behavior medicine books, including Decoding your Cat. So, dr Malamed, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

Amy Castro: 2:17

I appreciate you making the time to do this because, as I said to you in the quote unquote green room before we got started, that I was a bit on a tear when I decided I wanted to do an episode on this subject, and maybe it's just because I'm old and can't relate and I love my pets. I don't want anyone to think that I don't love my pets and that I don't care for them as if they're family, but I had been reading a lot of things about people who really treat their pets like they would treat human children and some of the problems that can arise from doing that, and I think maybe I blew it up bigger in my head and I thought we're going to do this episode and we're going to tell them all they're wrong and they're stupid and they need to do this. And you were so nice and kind when we had our first conversation and you're like, well, hold on a minute here. You know, if there's no harm happening, then there's no harm happening.

Amy Castro: 3:05

And so I was glad to have that conversation because it allowed me to kind of rein in this episode, to finding a little more balance, because I think everybody's objective in the end is just doing the best for their pet and loving them, right, right, I love this topic. So, yeah, thank you. No, yeah, good, and I'm glad. Yeah, I think it's just something that's important for people to hear both sides of things. You know, maybe people could be doing a little bit better and giving their pets what they need and, you know, maybe putting a little less pressure on themselves even to try to live up to some standard that they think that they have to have for caring for their pets. So what exactly does a veterinary behaviorist or a veterinary psychiatrist do?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 3:47

So we are veterinarians first and foremost and then we've gone on to do another three years of veterinary residency training in the field of clinical behavioral medicine. We're like psychiatrists for animals and we pass a two-day rigorous examination to become board certified by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. So in addition to being able to diagnose and treat medical issues that contribute to behavior changes or behaviors in general, we have extensive knowledge and expertise in advanced learning theory, behavior modification techniques, normal abnormal behavior, psychopharmacology and use of those medications. We kind of put everything together to address the physical and the emotional and mental needs of the pet and try to figure out what is causing that behavior or motivating that behavior. And we're looking at the whole pet, not just the physical and not just the behavioral, but everything together.

Amy Castro: 4:52

So and we're lumping in a bunch of different things dogs, cats and pets in general. But I always have this thinking process along the lines of as an animal it has certain needs, a certain species has certain needs, certain breeds have certain needs, and so if you kind of look at that as an umbrella thing, you know, dogs versus cats, let's say, do they have different psychological needs?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 5:16

Yeah, I mean they're fundamentally different in terms of their social structures and their communication styles and species specific behaviors and instinctual behaviors. They've sort of adapted in different ways and so we have to understand these differences, of course, to provide them with the appropriate enrichment and training and care that align with their natural tendencies and how they communicate, their body language, their socialization, all of those species differences hadn't really thought about that previously.

Amy Castro: 5:55

I kind of lumped my pets as my pets and they're living in my house and you know, my, my cats are only indoors. So there's a certain element to that. But I never really thought about their enrichment until I started doing the show really, and and doing rescue, you know, thinking about their enrichment needs. Even my darn dogs, like I kind of figured, okay, we've got a big piece of property. I opened the back door, they go outside, they run around, and it wasn't until I started diving into this subject and we've talked before on the show about enrichment and just a simple change.

Amy Castro: 6:21

Like recently, I have been taking them out in the front yard, which is also fenced, but it's just normally. I just let them out back, let them do their thing. But in the evenings we've started going out front and you would think that I was taking them to Disney World. For goodness sakes. It's almost like food time. They get all antsy, everybody's over by the front door and I think it's just different place, different smells, and I just never really thought about their well-being from that standpoint. I thought, ok, I love them, I'm caring for them, I'm feeding them, but there's more to it than that, right?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 6:52

Yeah, I mean they have. I mean cats in particular. Well, dogs and cats, but you know, they need to hunt, they need to forage, they need to climb, they need to perch, they need to hide, they need to do all of these things and adding complexity to their environment and thinking about the function of the enrichment that we're providing, it's actually providing a need that they have to perform these species-specific behaviors. And so when you let your dog into the backyard to sniff or run or fetch or whatever they're doing, it's a need that they have. And when we don't provide suitable enrichment opportunities or opportunities for animals to express their species-specific or innate behaviors, that's when we start to have challenges or problematic behaviors to the pet parent. Perhaps the behavior itself is functional and normal for the animal, but from the person's point of view, and sometimes those behaviors are completely normal adaptations but because the animal hasn't been provided with those appropriate opportunities or suitable outlets, we start to see other expressions that are not acceptable to the human.

Amy Castro: 8:06

Like what would be an example of that, like the first thing that comes to mind as somebody who I do a lot of dog introductions with. You know, we've got a rescue dog and we're trying to introduce it to the people's dog and you just see people like their dogs interact in the store and what do dogs do? Right? They go right to the other dog, butt and sniff and they're all up in there, right, and the people are like no, no, don't do that. And I'm like that's what they're supposed to do. And that's just one example. Is it harmful if people don't allow their dog to do that? Just?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 8:37

as an example, to greet another dog in that way. Well, I mean, that's just their natural behavior. So I think that putting our human expectations and obviously you know, I think a lot about how humans greet dogs as an example the way that we approach animals is really a human paradigm and we do what's natural to us. For example, like you know, it's natural when you meet another human, especially in a professional environment, like you would reach out your hand, shake their hand, or perhaps you know when you're having guests come over, you will give them a hug or whatever that is. But for you know, when you greet an animal, that could be perceived as a threat.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 9:15

But you know, we commonly hug animals and pet animals and reach for animals and approach them head on and make direct eye contact, and in fact those are all things that are very frequently. Dogs can become very aggressive or defensive, and sometimes they can. They can bite, and and then of course, we sometimes get upset by the fact that they've expressed that normal behavior to a threat. Right, that behavior has a function, which is to usually to increase distance from something that is threatening. So I think the point being is that the way that we think about greeting a dog is probably very different than how they would like to be greeted greeting a dog is probably very different than how they would like to be greeted.

Amy Castro: 10:01

Yeah, you know as kind of an offshoot of that. As far as the response to that is having the expectation that your dog should allow those types of things. When it makes them uncomfortable too, it's like you know it's. It's not a human well and even with human kids.

Amy Castro: 10:11

You know now that I get ready to have the words come out of my mouth. It's like if your kid is not comfortable hugging rando strangers, then you shouldn't force that, because there's a whole thing behind that about you know having their own boundaries respected as they grow in age and possibly opening them up to being abused in some way by people because they've been told they have to allow people that they don't want touching them.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 10:34

Touch them Because they've been told they have to allow people that they don't want touching them touch them, and I think that's sort of the.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 10:49

I mean, I would think that's sort of the same thing with dogs is that we need to learn to respect our dog's boundaries and to encourage other people to do so too another podcast.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 10:54

But you know we talk about consent and watching for body language and signs like is the animal approaching us, soliciting attention or affection, or is it showing signs that it's moving away or doesn't want to be touched or interacted with? So we look for signs of consent and obviously animals communicate differently than humans. They use vocalizations and body language and we have to learn to read that in order to know whether they feel uncomfortable or whether they're fearful or anxious or defensive or stressed or whatnot. So I think that's very important that sometimes people are well-meaning in their intentions and they assume that dogs like to be pet or they want to be approached, and cats too, but they don't. I think they may not have the awareness and that's really important to start there becoming aware of what is normal canine and feline body language and communication and interpreting their signals in a way that you know we can respond appropriately signals in a way that you know we can respond appropriately.

Amy Castro: 12:02

Yeah, I think I used to volunteer at an animal control facility and there was a shocking lack of knowledge, and I'm certainly no animal body language experts. But I have done research and I have learned a few things along the way and it was amazing to me how an animal would be labeled aggressive for exhibiting what should be a normal natural tendency or behavior based on the fact that you've got some you know six foot man that you don't know, that's coming into your cage like this, over the top of your head, reaching for you. It's like you know, only the very best natured and very you know, maybe massively handled animal who's experienced that discomfort and gotten over it, maybe through its lifetime, is going to put up with that. Other than that, they're going to respond with a fear response or a fearful aggression, and one of the tricky things I think is trying to get people to respect those boundaries.

Amy Castro: 12:48

When I'm doing introductions with a maybe a shyer dog, I find that people want to talk. They talk so much they just run in their mouths and it's like the dog's already scared. Now you're this loud human being and you're moving like this, with your arms moving and you're talking at this high volume and then you're bending over in their face. It's like why can't we just shut up and be quiet, let the dog come to you? And it's just. I think people like you said, their intentions are good and they're excited and they're trying to win that animal over, but they're doing all the wrong things, or they could be doing all the wrong things, depending upon the animal.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 13:24

Right. And then what happens is the animals start to hide their warning signs. So a growl is a communication like I'm not comfortable with that or you're threatening, move away from me, or maybe the dog moves its body away, or whatever the signal is. But if we persist in approaching the dog who just growled or handling the dog who just growled, that growl is going to very quickly turn into a bite and next time it's going to happen a lot faster. So that's you know where the role of practice and experience and learning comes into play. And when there's repeated negative experiences, the humans that don't respect or understand dog body language or cat body language, those warning signs progress. Body language or cat body language, those warning signs progress. And that's where we have problems increased severity.

Amy Castro: 14:16

And then they come to see me yeah, there you go Right, cause they've had a problem. They've had a problem or a bad experience. And it's interesting too, because people, because their knowledge is so limited, because I've had people say, well, oh, I didn't get any warning, he didn't growl, he didn't do this, or his tail was wagging, and it's like okay, there's a big difference between a tail wag and a tail wag, you know, when it comes to a dog and there are other signs and we don't. I don't want to turn this into a body language class, but one thing I think you know for everybody that's listening that has a dog, is do some research on what some of those body language elements would be that your animal is not comfortable. Things like lip licking or the way that their eyes are rolled in their head and yawning, things like that can all be indications of discomfort and you're just thinking that your dog's licking its lips because its lips are dry.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 15:02

Yeah, and it's the context too that you're looking at the whole body in the big picture, but also the subtleties. And I'm so glad that you mentioned the wagging the tail. That's a big misconception and I have to point it out because the more people that I can explain this to, the better. But the wagging tail always the misconception is that it means happy, that the dog is happy and it wants to interact, and it doesn't mean that. So it can mean that. It can mean that a dog is willing to engage in a friendly manner and you kind of look at the whole body, is it, is it wiggly, is it like you can? But it doesn't always mean that the dog is happy and relaxed. It could also mean that the dog is aroused or aggressive. You know where you have the stiff, high wagging tail. It can actually be a sign of agitation. So we have to be careful with that. I hear it all the time. Oh, the dog looked friendly, so I approached it was wagging its tail, and then we know what happens next.

Amy Castro: 16:00

Yeah Well and I think you know you made a good point too, because you know I, as somebody that teaches humans communication, body language is a huge part of our communication too, and we all know you can tell when somebody's got a fake smile on their face or they smile because they've been trained that that's the polite thing to do, but nothing else about their body language or their tone of voice or anything else is saying I want to interact with you. Then usually we believe the big picture more than just that one thing and I think we need to look at that with our dogs and our cats as well it's knowing the signs. And also you know how much of it comes down to beyond species. Individual personality of the pet or does breed play into some of that as well?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 16:40

Yeah, I mean it's behaviors, multifactorial. It's. Breed does play a role in. Genetics plays a role, environment plays a role, learning, early socialization or lack thereof, and also potential medical issues underlying pain or discomfort or abnormality. So some behaviors are maladaptive or they're abnormal. Each animal is an individual, just like humans are all individuals, and they may have certain predispositions that we definitely need to take into consideration that influence their behavior. But there's so much more to it than just breed alone and behavior is very fluid too. Like you know, behaviors change over time and depending on the external trigger or environment, learning and also the internal states of the animal. So there's a lot. It's very complex.

Amy Castro: 17:34

Yeah, I've seen that a lot with my bulldog. She's probably nine now and earlier on, you know, several years ago, because we run a rescue and we have a ton of different animals that come through this house, from, you know, little baby kittens to various dogs, and she has definitely become less tolerant. I don't know if it's because I know she does have a bad knee, I know she does have bad hips, so she's gotten older, but she used to be so tolerant. Now she's very growly towards anybody that's bothering her too much, or kittens that are trying to climb on her, and it's doesn't feel all that great and she doesn't want to put up with their BS. You know, like she's just kind of done and so I don't force her.

Amy Castro: 18:11

And that's where I think people get into trouble is they were, like you know, to tell her no, you're being bad, you know, and to make her put up with that. You were talking about the signs and things and it's like we see these videos all over the Internet and, again, I'm no body language expert for dogs but I can say, oh, that dog's getting ready to, and then the next thing that happens is the person gets bitten in the face and these videos of people that are letting their kids climb on the dog and use it as a you know and pulling on the ears and look how good he is.

Amy Castro: 18:40

It's like he shouldn't have to be. It's just going to be a matter of time when he's decided he's had it and then it's going to be his yeah.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 18:45

He's had it and then it's going to be his fault.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 18:47

Yeah, that makes me cringe when I see, you know, photos of babies climbing on dogs and I hear remarks, you know, I want a dog who will let my child do anything to it. And that's not realistic because at the end of the day, they're animals, they feel pain, they feel stress and children. They treat animals as peers and they don't. They're not expected to know, and even parents they're not expected to know or they don't know normal body language or how to read those signals all the time. And when you have children flailing around or toddler age running, they're unpredictable and they wrap their arms around the dog or kiss the dog on the face and you can clearly see in these photos all too often that you know they're exhibiting whale eye, their ears are back, they're like, they're tense, and it just makes me makes me cringe, and I am also a forensic expert witness for legal cases, so I've seen a lot of things that I really wish I had never seen. So I think that's a really important point to make.

Amy Castro: 20:09

Yeah, and you feel bad for the family or the parents when that happens, but at the same time, you created that scenario and allowed it to happen. They just they didn't know any better. But you need to do your homework. We did an episode about choosing the right dog for you and it's like you know you're basically you're inviting this animal to live with you for 15 years. You probably do more homework on the shoes that you buy than the dog that you bring home, just because it was allowing certain things or certain things flew when it was a puppy and it couldn't you know, it didn't know any better. And then it comes to adulthood or hits those teen years and it's a whole different ball of wax, and so you really need to know what you're doing.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 20:48

Yeah, and it also comes down to expectations Like what? What's your reason for getting a pet? Is it companionship, is it for show, as a show dog? And sometimes our expectations don't align. It's sort of the typical example would be selecting a large breed animal and when you live in an apartment and you can't necessarily like, if you can get the dog out for appropriate exercise and give it what it means daily, that's acceptable. But if you can't, you shift your perspective to like a smaller breed dog that doesn't require as much exercise or can express its behaviors more easily and in that environment. So I think it also comes down to finding the right fit and having realistic expectations and also what understanding, what the goal is for having a pet and if you can provide from the outset.

Amy Castro: 21:42

Yeah. So I highly encourage if that's ringing a bell with anybody for people to go back and check out that episode on how to choose the right dog for you, because we talked all about that in depth and it is so important. You know people, people are swayed by what they see in a movie. Or what does my neighbor have? What's the hot thing now? You know, french bulldog doodle, whatever it might be. I mean, I almost cringe when I see movies come out.

Amy Castro: 22:03

There was a movie that came out a while back that had a military working dog, a Malinois, and I thought, good Lord, please don't let everybody go out and start getting Mals, because that is not a dog for everybody. It needs a lot and most people don't have the time or energy to give a Mal what it needs. So, along those same lines as trying to get an animal like a dog and I will be the first one to admit that I have done a terrible job getting my dogs out and about taking them to events, so when they go out they act like idiots, they get all overwrought and drooling and just overly excited. I have four dogs, so a couple of them I might take to, let's say, a big dog event. You know, super cute thing in Golden, colorado recently where it was like golden retrievers everywhere. I was like what could be better than that? But you know, some dogs can handle prime time like that and some can't. And so part of my hang up, I guess, about this whole anthropomorphizing of pets is when you think this is my child, this is my family member, is when you think this is my child, this is my family member, and as a family we're going to this event. But maybe the event is not the appropriate environment.

Amy Castro: 23:11

I went to one, probably about a year or so, I won't name it because it was a lovely event and it was very well organized. But as I'm sitting there watching potential disaster upon potential disaster upon potential disaster, because there are some dogs that are just not going to do well in an environment like that and the owner's oblivious, you know they're, they're drinking their beer, they're talking with the other person, the dog's on a flexi leash, 50 feet behind them and I'm thinking someone's going to die. So what do we think about, you know, as far as you know, wanting to bring our pets everywhere or to have them adapt to our schedules, like I'm going to go out with friends for a beer at 10 o'clock at night. Is it okay to do that? Should we leave them at home, like what's the right thing?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 23:50

to do. It depends on the animal right, and every animal is different and there are some dogs who are very social and do very well in environments where there's lots of people, and then there are dogs who are very triggered by that and are fearful or fear aggressive, with many different stimuli, whether it's noises, it's strangers, it's being in a confined environment. It's just a lot of unpredictable movement. And so one thing that has always, you know, been a big problem is when people are like you know what I need to socialize my dog and put them in these situations so that they'll get over their fears, and that's called flooding, and that type of exposure is usually makes things worse and it goes the other direction. And that's where we, like you said, that's where problems arise and it's sort of like, you know, if you were claustrophobic and you came over to my house and I stuffed you in a closet like you'd never want to come to my house again, that's not going to help you, right? Exactly, I would. I would never do that, but just as a silly example, yeah, you should be so paying attention to your animal and and trying to avoid those things that are triggering, and then work on them and if you recognize that there's an issue.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 25:13

And you know, obviously we all have our human needs and desires, but we have to keep in mind that that may not be what's best for the pet and some animals are happier at home and with maybe select individuals that are familiar to them and are predictable to them. And that's not to say you can't work on it. But there's a difference between exposure flooding in that way versus systematic and gradual desensitization and counter conditioning, which is basically like the meat and bones of changing a negative emotional response to a positive one. So if your cat is afraid of visitors, and you know, every time your visitor comes over, the tuna comes out and they learn to associate like, oh good, things happen, but it's on their terms. They can come out if they want to. It's not a party.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 26:05

So sometimes we have to adjust our lifestyle and environment to meet the pet's needs and other times we just need to recognize that it's okay to manage, it's okay to avoid certain things. We don't have to fix everything. Sometimes it's a matter of meeting our pets halfway and knowing that they're just like people in a way, like they have differences that sometimes we can help them to overcome through, you know, either changing our interactions or the environment, addressing any medical concerns. There's lots of things that we can do, but sometimes, you know, we reach a point where we have to meet them halfway you know, we reach a point where we have to meet them halfway.

Amy Castro: 26:48

Well, I think everybody's safety. You know there's a, on many, many levels, wonderful six year old blind pit bull that I'm fostering for the last two years and it probably is going to end up being my dog because I've been struggling to find somebody that is an appropriate adopter, that can meet her halfway, kind of like what you said. She's already proven that taking her to, let's say, an adoption event I mean she's completely blind and so taking her to an adoption event where there is other dogs, which she's great with other dogs I mean we've got four dogs and three cats running around this house and she's fine with everybody, but it's in her environment, it's not in a random environment with random strangers, random voices coming at her from 50 different directions. She does not do well in those situations. She wouldn't do well at a party, and so it's like I need to find that person that is a hermit. No kids, no dogs, no kids, no dogs, you know.

Amy Castro: 27:36

But but really just you know somebody that would be willing? Like when you have people, like we do, we have people come over, she's in her crate and most of the time time everybody else is in their crater outside and then gradually, one at a time, we meet. You know, we don't introduce her to the whole party of people and it's a process to help her adapt and get comfortable. And sometimes she does. And sometimes with certain people I can tell there's like this little low growl or she's just not comfortable and then she just goes back to the bedroom. It's fine. She doesn't have to be out with every single person. I figured that out.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 28:11

Instead of forcing the issue and then learning the hard way that it's not going to work. That's right, and then it's. You know the things that they don't have to do, right. Like, okay, yes, exercise is really important, but I have a number of patients who are absolutely terrified of going for walks. But the pet parent has been told you have to take your dog for a walk because exercise is a you know, it's a need that they have. And then you sort of have to have that conversation about okay, well, yes, exercise is very important.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 28:36

However, we have to take into consideration the fact that every time your dog goes out for a walk, they're afraid of noises, they're afraid of skateboards, they want to go home, they're petrified. So is this really what's best for this particular animal? And are there other ways that we can provide enrichment and exercise in an environment that is not so scary? And I think that there are. There are other. You know, sometimes it's difficult, there's no yard, so it can be challenging, but there's usually creative solutions to be able to provide that mental and physical enrichment and activity without putting these expectations on the animal, that they starts to disrupt the human animal bond and then it creates feelings of guilt because there's conflicting motivations for the pet parent, where they want to do what's best for their animal and they've been given different information, and that can be really hard.

Amy Castro: 29:41

Forcing a shy child to go to a birthday party that they don't want to go to, and it's like yeah, I'm gonna go because I'm gonna look bad if you don't go to this party, and then the kid will prove to you how shy they are, and it's you know it's going to end up being a fiasco anyway.

Amy Castro: 29:57

So and I would assume that obviously that would be something that if I had an animal like that and but and I wanted to work towards getting them out more or getting them around other people, that's where I would come and see you so that you can guide me in doing that the right way and not over what did you call it? Flooding them and then making the situation worse.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 30:18

Yes, exactly. And then I always tell I like to make this point in every single podcast or conversation that I have with pet parents or other professionals about the fact that physical and emotional well-being of animals is intertwined and intrinsically connected. So if an animal is showing signs of stress or any kind of behavioral issue aggression or marking behavior, unwanted urination there's so many medical conditions that are underlying behavioral issues and especially pain. There's studies that have shown that a large proportion of animals with behavioral issues have underlying pain, whether it's, you know, orthopedic issues, and even dogs with noise phobias, like you would never think they're in pain. So that's the first thing. It's not just about addressing their behavior with changing the environment or with desensitization and counter conditioning.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 31:15

Yes, you have to do often both right, you address the medical and the behavioral concurrently. But if there's a change in behavior in your animal, whether it's a younger or older animal, if there's something that's out of character, especially in older animals, we always want to make sure that we're ruling out underlying medical issues. And you speak to your veterinarian, take your pet to the vet, have a physical exam performed and whatever diagnostics are recommended at that time. Baseline lab work is usually a good place to start. But it really depends on what the issue is to make sure that there isn't anything else that could be causing that behavior problem or change or challenge or whatever it is, because at that point if there's something medical not to say that it doesn't matter what else you do, but you can't ignore that the behavior problem is not going to resolve itself if you don't address the physical component.

Amy Castro: 32:13

If that's a problem, yeah, yeah, so that brings me to another question with the, you know, when you were talking about the behavior and the physical and I've been guilty of it myself, you know I have said to my dogs you did that on purpose, didn't you? Or you know, you're mad at me because of blah, blah, blah, or look at that guilty face. What are your thoughts along the lines of us attributing human motive? The guilty face? Uh, you know. So that means that you definitely knew what you did was wrong by tearing that up, because when I say gunny, what did you do? And you go, you know, and you kind of make that, that look, that it's like a human emotion in that way, or the whole. We call it revenge, pissing around here. But it's like, you know, you intentionally didn't use that litter box because you were mad, because I did blah, blah, blah, so you peed on my bed and it's like do they?

Amy Castro: 33:01

have motive like that? Or are we all just nuts trying to attribute human motive? We're all just nuts, we're just nuts.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 33:10

Yeah, I mean anthropomorphism is like that's sort of like the typical thing, I think. When I think anthropomorphism is like that sort of like the typical thing, I think when I think anthropomorphism is assuming that dogs have this inherent knowledge of moral code of human life, you know this understanding of our experience too and how we might perceive something. I think animals are just doing what is natural most of the time for them and they don't know necessarily that they're unacceptable to the human. And so you know when cats I hear it all the time you know if a cat pees on the bed or in unwanted areas it's mad at you know the person, but or it's out of spite. And when we attribute human emotions, thoughts or intentions to animals may come from that place of love. But it can sometimes lead to misunderstandings about why the pet's actually behaving that way and what the actual function of that behavior is. And many pet parents do believe that when their dog is looking, looks guilty after doing something wrong, that the dog must have, must know that they've misbehaved or they feel ashamed of it. But what's really happening usually is that the dog is showing these typical fearful or submissive signs. Where they're, you know, they're cowering, they're sort of hunkering down or their ears are back and they're kind of looking up at their owners and that is interpreted as guilt, but really they're reacting to the owner's behavior.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 34:33

So there is actually an interesting study.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 34:36

They looked at 14 pet dogs in their owner's home and each dog was given a treat and the owner instructed the dog not to eat a treat and the owner left the room. Sometimes the dog obeyed and didn't eat the treat and other times the dog ate the treat, which was secretly arranged by the researcher. And in some cases the owner was told that their dog ate the treat, even if they didn't, and they scolded the dog. So you know they were looking at whether the dog looked more quote guilty when they actually had done something versus when they hadn't, and they recorded the dog's behavior and to see what they would do when their owners returned. And the dogs did not look guilty more often when they actually disobeyed them when they did, and instead they had that look or that submissive posture when they were scolded, whether they ate the treat or not. So it just means that when we interpret that look as guilt, it's actually a response to our reaction, not the dog feeling guilt or shame. It's really a fearful response. I'm glad that you brought that up.

Amy Castro: 35:39

Well, and that you know. A good test of that is if you walk out, to like, if I walked out now and I said what did you do? And I looked at anybody, they'd all look guilty.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 35:46

Yeah, but sometimes even if it happened in the past and there's not. You know you're not currently using that tone because now you're more cognizant and you're trying to change the interaction they can still have. They have memory right and so they, depending on the context in which it happened before and now they have a memory of what happened before. So they react in the same way regardless of how you react, and so that can be confusing. So that's why we go back into the history and say, oh, what was your reaction to this behavior in the past? And that's where the pieces sometimes come into place. But I have many, many clients who are doing most things right. You know they've done great and provide for their dogs, they understand their dog's triggers, they try to avoid them, they've tried to work on them, they use positive reinforcement, they're not punishing their dogs. So they're doing so many things right.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 36:40

And there's still these behaviors that are causing unhappiness in the household, both for the pet and the pet parent, and many times it does have to do with the interaction between the pet parent and the animal or the environment, but it can go well beyond that. You know, sometimes it's just the animal and their genetics and their early experience that shapes their later behavior that has really nothing to do with the current environment or pet parent. So I think that sometimes we feel responsible and we feel guilty and I have to tell people this isn't your fault. Don't listen to people who say it's all about the human and and there's something wrong with the human. No, it really bothers me, actually, because that's not the case and sometimes it is, but every case is different, right, and so that's where we have to look at the individual circumstances and the history and and also again understand is there something abnormal about this dog? Is there an underlying medical reason? Is there a neurologic reason? There's things that go beyond the human and it doesn't really matter what we do.

Amy Castro: 37:49

Yeah, it's not our fault. So, to bring all this together, let's kind of talk about some final thoughts or final advice. To bring all this together, let's kind of talk about some final thoughts or final advice. I would like to encourage people to find that balance between letting, like I said in the beginning, letting dogs be dogs and cats be cats, and making sure that we are creating environments that allow them to do that and scenarios that allow them to do that. But at the same time, I will acquiesce to you about meeting my human need of getting what I get out of, like putting clothes on my dog or taking them out to places with me. What's your best advice for finding that balance, you know?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 38:22

when it comes to like spoiling our pets because I know that comes up a lot I think the distinction lies between needs and wants, and a pet's needs are tied to its natural species, specific behaviors, and we should ask ourselves what does this animal need to express its normal behaviors while living in a human home? And, for example, cats need opportunities to climb and scratch and chase and play and hunt. And some cats enjoy hiding in boxes, while others want to be up high. Typically luxury items and the things that I think maybe you're referring to aren't essential for the pet. They're more of a human want maybe you're referring to aren't essential for the pet. They're more of a human want. So when deciding what to provide for the pet, I focus on functionality and how the item meets the pet's behavioral or physical needs. So, for example, a cat doesn't care if its scratching post costs $10 or $70, as long as it fulfills the purpose of scratching, you don't need to spend a lot of money on fancy toys. Cats enjoy playing with paper balls and hiding in cardboard boxes.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 39:18

That said, I'd like to think that spoiling our pets really means that we're going above and beyond to ensure their well-being and, in reality, meeting their needs isn't really spoiling at all. It's essential. No such thing as too much enrichment. The more opportunities for natural behaviors the better, but when a pet's natural behaviors aren't met they can develop behavior problems that are problematic to humans. So I think that for pet parents who provide luxury items that don't necessarily satisfy a functional need, it's about the human animal bond right. And when we spoil our pets, as long as it's not harmful and even if it's reflecting a human desire to indulge our pets, to fulfill our own emotional need to feel closer to them, that's perfectly okay, as long as we're also meeting all the pet's behavioral needs and there's no harm in what we're providing. And at the end of the day, that human-animal bond is why we have pets and that's what it's all about. So if a little spoiling strengthens that bond, then I'm all for it, as long as we're doing all the other things that we need to do.

Amy Castro: 40:20

Hey, I've been giving my dogs cookies to this past week and when they come in and they've done their business outside in the morning, everybody comes to the kitchen and sits and gets a little something. I'm trying to be nice. That's good. Yeah, that's probably. The problem is that I've got so many that nobody. I almost have lost touch with my own pets in treating them like a herd. You know, it's like their responsibility as opposed to a joyful addition to the household. But now that we have scaled the rescue way back, trying to reconnect with them a little bit, yeah, you see them in a different light.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 40:51

Like, give them toys, give them treats, give them all those things. Just, you know, obviously you have to make sure that they have a complete and balanced diet and you're not you're staying with it, but but also making sure that you know what that particular animal is motivated by, right, is it attention, is it toys, is it treats? And provide those things, that is for sure.

Amy Castro: 41:12

So are there any resources that you recommend for pet parents to do a better job at pet parenting along these lines?

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 41:19

Yeah, a couple of resources I can mention in terms of books. There's two books One is called Decoding your Cat and one is Decoding your Dog, and they're collaborations by different board certified veterinary behaviorists, so it's put out by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. So you know I would start there. Also, I have some educational resources and support for pet parents. I have a Facebook page, so it's Behavior Medicine, support for Pet Parents, and there's also some YouTube link and Instagram. And then the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists has a list of all the veterinary behaviorists available in the country, and so if you're trying to locate someone, you can go onto their website as well, and they have also some resources for pet parents.

Amy Castro: 42:12

Well, Dr Malamed, thank you so much for being here with us today and putting me on the right path. Between you know, as opposed to the war path that I was on already with this hang up that I had about pets being pets and being able to act like pets, I think you've shown us that we can find a good balance of meeting our needs through our pets and meeting our pets needs as well. So I really appreciate you being here and sharing your expertise and experience.

Dr. Rachel Malamed: 42:37

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for all that you do as well with your rescue work.

Amy Castro: 42:42

So rescue world is a crazy world. Thank you, I appreciate that, and thank you to everybody for listening to another episode of Muddy Paws and Hairballs. Take this week, take the opportunity to listen to this episode, maybe listen to it again and implement some of the things that we talked about, so that you and your pet are living your best lives and living them well together, and we will see you next week. Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs. Be sure to visit our website at muddypawsandhairballscom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss a show. And hey, if you like this show, text someone right now and say I've got a podcast recommendation. You need to check the show out and tell them to listen and let you know what they think. Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode. And if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.