Stop Training, Start Parenting: Rethinking Dog Training with Angie Winters

Angie Winters, the insightful author of "Don't Train Your Dog," challenges everything you thought you knew about dog training. She argues that traditional training methods relying on treats and fear miss the mark, emphasizing that true guidance comes from understanding a dog's emotional needs and forming a genuine bond. Tune in as Angie shares her innovative approach to pet parenting, based on over two decades of experience in dog rehabilitation and parenting, revealing how dogs are naturally attuned to human emotions through our facial expressions.

My own experiences with adopting difficult-to-train dogs serve as a backdrop for this enlightening conversation. We explore the parallels between raising children and guiding our furry companions, highlighting the importance of treating dogs as beloved family members rather than mere pets. Angie and I discuss the nuances of providing consistent leadership and setting boundaries, and how emotional neutrality can lead to better behavior in both children and dogs. The path to a harmonious household, it seems, lies in earning a dog's respect and understanding their unique perception of people.

Throughout the episode, we delve into practical strategies for effective dog parenting, touching on the merits of consistency and early intervention in behavioral issues. Angie’s methods are brought to life through personal anecdotes, offering listeners a fresh perspective on fostering a strong human-canine relationship. From understanding the root causes of aggression to using simple guidance techniques, this episode is packed with insights to help you connect more deeply with your dog and welcome them as integral members of your family.

Learn more about Angie and her services on her website: https://parenting4dogs.com/

Buy Angie's book on Amazon: Don't Train Your Dog

 Big changes are coming soon to Starlight Pet Talk! 🚀 We’re excited to share that we're evolving to bring you even more engaging content and fresh perspectives. Stay tuned for new features and exciting updates that will enhance your listening experience. We can’t wait to reveal what’s next—keep an eye out for more details! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Redefining Pet Parenting for Dogs
• 8:37 Effective Parenting Techniques for Dogs
• 14:58 Establishing Boundaries for Dog Parenting
• 18:58 Effective Dog Training Approaches
• 28:01 Effective Guidance Techniques for Dogs
• 38:40 Effective Dog Parenting Strategies
• 45:26 Promoting Starlight Pet Talk Podcast

Transcript

Amy Castro: 0:00

Is traditional dog training failing our pets? What if there was a better way, one that taps into the emotional connection we have with our dogs? In this episode, I'm joined by Angie Winters, author of Don't Train your Dog, as we explore why typical training methods might be causing more harm than good and how we can become better dog parents instead of just trainers. Tune in to discover the keys to raising a happier, well-behaved dog by meeting their emotional needs and teaching them the right way without tricks. Stay tuned. You're listening to Starlight Pet Talk, a podcast for pet parents who want the best pet care advice from cat experts, dog trainers, veterinarians and other top pet professionals who will help you live your very best life with your pets. Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk. I'm your host, amy Castro. My guest today is Angie Winters, author of Don't Train your Dog.

Amy Castro: 0:54

For Angie, helping dogs is more than just a job. It's a calling. As a dog parenting coach and social entrepreneur. For more than 20 years, angie has obsessively studied, raised and rehabilitated over a thousand dogs and helped their parents. Her record for fixing broken dogs who were deemed unfixable by typical dog trainers, vets, medications, behavior experts and even their own parents, and sometimes rescues is unparalleled. Using a careful understanding of dog emotion and effective communication. Angie's cutting-edge dog parenting philosophy helps dog parents, rescues and prison dog training programs nationwide. Angie has had dog parents drive from as far as California to seek out coaching at her Ohio home. Her mission is to create a world where dogs are understood and valued for their incredible gifts, leading to happier and healthier lives for both dogs and their parents.

Amy Castro: 1:46

So, angie, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So it's interesting that we're doing this topic because I just recently did an episode with Jennifer Holland who wrote a book called Dog Smart Life-Changing Lessons in Canine Intelligence and it really got me to thinking about the many ways that our dogs are intelligent but how many of those ways are very different in how humans measure intelligence and I think that kind of tied over into certainly some of the things that you talked about in your book and the way that we quote unquote train dogs versus what I see it more as creating a relationship, establishing boundaries. So you had said in the book that you feel like society kind of misunderstands or basically underestimates the emotional complexity of dogs. So what do you think are some of the misconceptions that people have?

Angie Winters: 2:37

Yeah, I think they vastly underestimate the intelligence and the emotional entanglement that they are born with with humans. So when people have a dog and anybody who's had a relationship with a dog, they know how close they are. They know that their dog, you know, already knows what they're going to do and can establish these routines and sometimes learns a routine in one repetition, depending on the outcome. You know, or what they get any kind of positive result, they learn that immediately, right, but it's a positive result from the interaction between the human and the dog. So dogs are born reading our facial features and they're able to understand them. They're born with it. They don't learn this, you know, studies show they're born with it, which means they've kind of accepted us into their life, into their DNA. If they're born that way, to look to humans and to pair with humans, basically I say they're born to be family members with us because of this entanglement that they're born with and this dependency on us to be able to read our eye movements and finger pointing and to locate objects and to navigate the modern world.

Angie Winters: 3:42

So the problem is people are focused on this dog training mentality that we've all been raised with and taught and you know. It's just on and on and on. I think people see constantly where that falls short, but yet we always just default back to that type of thinking of training a wild or domesticated animal and you're trying to put this on a super, highly emotional, intellectual being that's a family member, and then you're just trying to use these, bring it all the way down to the simpleton, you know, food in equals reaction out, or fear in equals reaction out, when really the effective communication is already there. It's just that dogs know how to use it, but people don't know how to use that in order to guide their dogs into learning the proper family skills and safety rules and to fulfill them.

Amy Castro: 4:32

Yeah, I loved it in the book when you were talking about the fact that many of the things that we consider training are basically just like teaching them tricks, and one of the examples you gave was you know, you tell them to sit, you give them a treat and it's like it got. It just got me to thinking like that, you're right, that's really no different than telling them to sit up and beg or telling them to twirl in a circle or play dead. You're, you're giving a verbal, you're giving a reward, and they're doing. You know, and they're reacting. But you know how does that translate into them not getting run over in the street when you want them to listen to you?

Amy Castro: 5:05

And I and one of the hangups I always had with treat training is if, if it's so dependent on and I know that there is a place to use treats, but it's like if that's the only way that you can get your dog to do anything, then what happens when you don't have treats on you when you're out and about? I mean, it's just like that's always been a question in my mind for people who rely on those. You're going to carry around a pocket full of treats everywhere you go for the rest you know for 14 years, just doesn't make sense.

Angie Winters: 5:30

Yeah, I mean, and treats for me are, they're just the enrichment of the things that I'm already teaching them. It's the icing on the cake of things. And you know a way to go out of my way catch them already making good choices and having good behaviors and to reward for that and encourage those states of mind and those actions and those feelings. But they do not do anything. I don't care. I don't care how anybody paints it. Everybody knows that you can help a dog that's a little bit unsure of an object or something that's just unsure of. Treats can help make them feel better about that. But they cannot undo fears, they cannot absolutely prevent fears. That's done by the relationship between the dog and the parent, and that trust and respect has to be there.

Angie Winters: 6:20

But the dog training mentality in the dog training world because it doesn't work has tied parents hands and parents are just like immobilized. They can't figure out what to do. So half the time they don't do anything, or then they just lash out in anger because their hands have been tied and they're just left with this. Well, it should work. Well then there's something wrong with your dog.

Angie Winters: 6:40

Well then, you didn't do enough repetitions, you didn't give the right treats at the right time, at the what and the reason why, and then everything goes off the rails. And then parents truly believe there's something is wrong with the dog or something's wrong with them and they're just not up to it. So and I'm saying that these are parents who have given an effort I mean they give the effort, they want to do it, but if you have the wrong information it's not going to ever work anyway. But it's made it seem like it's so hard to concentrate with or to communicate with a dog, it's so hard to teach them not to bite kids and not to run out the door, and it's really not that hard at all.

Amy Castro: 7:15

Right. Well, and I think a lot of. It seems like you're kind of working with the natural, like some of the things that you talk about in the book the example of training a puppy to only play with its own toys and the process. You know I don't want to give away the farm by sharing too much, but it's a process that you establish from the beginning. It's not something that you wait until there's a problem, that they've eaten the legs off your furniture and they've been chewing all your stuff up for whatever months that now you're going to fix that with training. It's establishing parameters, just like you would with your own children.

Amy Castro: 7:47

I mean, you don't train your children per se and I think the example that you give in the book is great. It really got my mind changed about the idea of pet parenting because, to be perfectly honest, I have a little bit of a hang up with how far sometimes people take this concept of pet parenting and I want to get into talking about the humanization of dogs and how that kind of does them a disservice. I do want to talk with you about that, but I do like where you talked about like what is your definition of parenting? Can you explain that a little bit and how that translates not only to your children, but how that translates to your other family members, including your pets.

Angie Winters: 8:27

Right. So I think that the reason why I had the same feelings of you as you years ago but, like as it explains my book, I've been doing this for 28 years, so it's been an evolution, right, but it's. You know, the first main learning phases happened in like the first five years, seven years, and then it was just refining to try to come up with these simple ways to use recipes and simple ways to guide dogs. So that became more solidified for me and I felt perfectly fine calling it parenting, because I realized that parenting was a more accurate description of what I was doing with these dogs. When I was just bringing in dog after dog and, as we've talked about, I was just, you know, getting only taking dogs into my house and and over and over and over of the ones that nobody else was able to fix Right, and in this, just this attempt to find solutions, that I was just watching all these dogs suffer and lose their home and and, and I could see the, the lack of common sense and this dog training mentality of treats, treats, treats, sit or fear, you know, in neither one of those works, and so, just a desperate attempt to find answers, I started bringing him in and then, as this process went on of me bringing him in and raising two kids at the same time, I realized wait a minute.

Angie Winters: 9:37

The only problem I have with calling parenting is when you use the word this is my, this is my child was first of all. They don't need to be a child in order to deserve parenting right. Just the fact that they're born entangled with us and they're dependent on us in our modern society means they deserve they are a family member in my mind and they do deserve to be parented. They don't need to be a child in order to deserve that. But what people mistake that with is when they say this dog training doesn't work and so they just kind of give up and say I'm just going to, he's my child, I'm just going to let him do whatever he wants because he's my baby. It's like, well, we don't, we don't let our child do everything we want anyway because they're our baby either. You know, they deserve to learn and dogs deserve to learn the family rules and safety rules and to be able to function and not be anxiety ridden just as much as children do, because they're family members.

Angie Winters: 10:28

But so I am parenting these dogs, I realized, because my definition of parenting is providing love, support and guidance to vulnerable family members. Now, children are vulnerable and they're two and three and they grow up and they're, you know, no longer that vulnerable anymore, so they don't need that kind of parenting that dogs in our modern society remain perpetually two-year-olds. They're going to always need the guidance. So that's why I call it parenting and why I feel comfortable with calling it parenting and in fact it's actually more accurate. And also I realized, if you get out of that dog training mentality, that's how you start realizing, oh, and they're like, oh, this just seems like magic, that just worked too easy.

Angie Winters: 11:10

It can't be that easy. It's like well, it is. When you have certain skills with children, you know this kind of thing. We know that this generally works with kids, this generally works with dogs. There is that commonality. So there's room for temperament, there's room for breed, there's room for all that, but there's still a common amount of guidance that works that dogs understand right. So it's got to be black and white, which is different. The timing of it's different.

Amy Castro: 11:33

How you parent and give that guidance to dogs is very different than you give it to kids Agreed, agreed, but I think there's also, you know, there's some of the things that you were talking about, like providing calm, consistent leadership and, you know, not going to extremes of emotions one way or the other. I think that's the same with kids. I mean, I think kids can become immune to well, you know well, first of all, negatively impacted, but also very immune to extremes in emotion or inconsistency, extremes in emotion or inconsistency, and then, the next thing, you know, they're running their own agenda, cause, I mean, I was like that even, you know, as a going into my teenage years, because my mom would say, well, you're not going to leave this house. And I'm thinking to myself, yeah, what are you going to do about?

Angie Winters: 12:14

it and I would leave and nothing ever happened.

Amy Castro: 12:16

So don't, don't throw down that gauntlet. But it's the same thing. I see this a lot with people parenting their pets and their children. I mean, you see it in the grocery store, you see it in the restaurants the threatening over and over and over again we're going to get up and leave this restaurant if you don't do this. And we say it 50,000 times, like how about we say it once and then we make it happen Right, and therefore ta-da. You know, the kid will quickly learn, and it's the same. You gave the same or similar examples with dogs as well. I mean, do you see that as a huge issue with people working with their dogs is the inconsistency?

Angie Winters: 12:52

I do. There's too many human words. I had to learn to not use so many words with dogs in my attempts to figure out what works with them, and then they taught me that that works. You know facial expressions which we talk about in the book as a just a parenting across the board for kids and dogs. Say it once and then make it happen. And so the where people trip up on that is they don't have a clear plan of actually how they're going to give that guidance right. So human parents, if they have the knowledge you know, say here's what I'm going to do. I already think out the scenario. Here's what's going to happen. It's going to be natural consequences.

Angie Winters: 13:26

You remain emotionally neutral when you do it. Not that I mean parenting is parenting. Sometimes we're going to lose our temper a little or whatever. But if you have a plan and you have the actual tools in your toolbox that actually work and that you can do and you're confident about, then you can remain emotionally neutral. When you're doing that, you have no chance of remaining emotionally neutral, which renders all your words and your everything ineffective, if you cannot remain emotionally neutral. And so that's why my book goes into even all the way into see the picture of this. Look on this person's face.

Amy Castro: 13:58

I love the pictures in the infographics.

Angie Winters: 14:01

Yeah, because it's got to be easy. It doesn't matter if you or I can do it. If parents can't do it, then dogs are going to continue to lose their homes, dogs are going to continue to be in and the resources it takes to rescue one dog and then when people don't have the ability to rehabilitate that dog, then they place it in. And when adoptions happen, many times they're unsuccessful and then they come back and the dog has more problems Now, has more separation anxiety, now it's labeled a biter. All that stuff is the reason why I wrote the book, because all that can be easily prevented and the behavior problems can be fixed.

Amy Castro: 14:49

Yeah, I think it's surprising to me. Well, maybe it shouldn't be the things that people do that create the issues that they've got. You give examples of the play biting with your puppy and roughhousing with their face and encouraging them to do that, and it's like it's all fun and games when they well, it's maybe not so much fun and games because those baby teeth are pretty sharp, but you know, when they're little and they don't have the bite power, but then when they're bigger and they still want to play the same way, now you've got a problem with it and it's like it's. I think it's completely unfair to the animal. That and we've talked about this in several episodes we talked about it in an episode where we talked with somebody who worked with people that were going to have a baby and how do we get the dog ready for the baby?

Amy Castro: 15:31

And the way you get the dog ready for the baby is you decide how your life is going to be, and you mentioned it many times. You just mentioned it now and many times in the book it's. You don't just go into it, whatever it might be, the exercise or the practice or the scenario, you plan for it. And so it's like, if I know I'm going to not allow my dog to go into my baby's room before the baby's even here, why do we even let the dog go into the room or to go upstairs Like? Create those boundaries early. We don't want the dog jumping on the baby on the couch or grandma when she comes to visit. Well, why do we let them do it all the other times, like it's, it's. You know. There's only so much anybody can handle switching of the rules at a whim that they can't comprehend, you know.

Angie Winters: 16:13

No, no, I mean for dogs. You know there does need to be consistency, but the great thing about dogs is you know they're capable of such dramatic change. Given a trusted, respected parental figure and this guidance they're, they're capable of incredible change, way faster than a human being can change. You know, because they live in the moment and as long as that trust there and as long as their environment makes sense to them, according to the natural wiring that they're born with, which you know it's the way mother nature works, as long as you can replicate that in your house and in your parenting, dogs learn fast, but further, even beyond what you're saying.

Angie Winters: 16:45

My goal is to empower parents with every recipe and every prescription that they need and the perspective that they need and all the tools they need to be able to have the dog be present with family members and have good behavior, have easy behavior, know when to be easy, know when to be calm, because they're born wanting to be included so badly right. And so so much of this typical dog training has failed and it's really, it's really so sad because then the dog gets chaotically removed from the room or when people come over or whatever you know, and then they're, they're shoved into the crate which makes the crate horrible, you know they're just and they become heartbroken and anxiety ridden and they completely don't understand. They deserve to be able to be taught in a way they understand, proper behavior that's safe and effective so that they can be included. I mean they deserve to be taught in a way that they understand, and the way that they understand is not typical dog training made up by humans. These words put on the dogs.

Amy Castro: 18:15

Yeah, I love in the book when you talk about the three different ways that dogs tend to see people and I think that's another thing that kind of correlates with human children too. Right, so they either fear you, they basically blow you off, or they respect you and I see that, you know, you see that all the time. So you can be the aggressor and create that fear, or you can be, which I see, probably even well. It's interesting because you don't see the aggressor as much, because I don't think people are as bad about that in public, but you do see that permissive side of things of letting you know, basically letting them get away with murder, and it's rare that you see that, see that respect, I guess, because it has to be earned. Can you talk a little more?

Angie Winters: 18:58

about that, yeah, and say dogs are like I said, it's so much simpler with dogs and the dog training world typical dog training world has made it made it seem like it's hard to earn the dog's trust and respect. So they do need to respect you, but they also need to trust you. So those things are equally important. So you can only get that by providing dogs firm guidance, but it's supportive guidance at the same time. So you know, I draw the analogy between the three different types of parenting that psychologists have determined for many years. So it's like a way to explain you've got to hit that firm but supportive parenting so that you're not to be feared and you're not to be dismissed. You know you are respected, but because you give respect back and you're treated in a way that you know honors, you know what they're born with and you educate yourself in a way that communicate with them in a way that they understand, and then it's like almost everybody I know, until they do this firm but supportive parenting and they approach it in the way that my book Don't Train your Dog talks about, is that your relationship becomes so close and involved with this dog that you see its full personality that most people are never seeing their dog's full personality. They're just seeing all these actions and reactions and fears and the love is there. You know, the love is we're. We're just. We're just entangled with dogs. I mean, dogs are our family, we're entangled with them. I don't see how that can be disputed at this point, based on what we know about them. And they're capable of learning extremely high level thinking because of that attachment to us, right so, and because they're partners with us. So that has enabled them to function at a much higher level than they probably would if they're just as their self as an animal, you know. So I don't think they're simply domesticated animals, because they're born entangled with us. So I think they deserve to be treated as family members. But for people to learn the guidance that they need to function in our modern society and be fulfilled and happy, and so that every family member is safe. You know we teach children to how to interact with each other so that they can be safe and we can walk out of the room without, you know, the child hitting the other child over the head with a steel truck. You know it's like we do.

Angie Winters: 21:04

We approach that we give the proper guidance, consequences. If needed, what will happen? We know we don't allow this. We can't do this. Here's a better way. You know that's supportive guidance. Still firm, I'm never going to allow the hitting right. That's the firm part. But the supportive part is here's what we can do different. Here's what's going to happen if we don't. Here's what we do with different. So it's providing a teaching moment. It's not providing punishment. Punishment is not learning. It's not a learning moment providing punishment. Punishment is something that's done to kids or dogs after something has occurred, in the hopes that that will be so harsh or negative that they will never want to repeat it. It doesn't truly teach them why we're doing this and why it can't be and what the alternatives are.

Amy Castro: 21:45

You know, it's interesting because, as you're saying that, so my real job I shouldn't say real job, but the thing I actually get paid for, to pay to do in life is I, uh, I do communication training and one of the things that I really focus on and I'm actually starting a second podcast called unapologetically assertive, because people confuse assertive with aggression, like you know that it's, that it's something to be feared, right, and to me, assertiveness is, you know, finding that balance of getting along and getting things done, finding that balance of getting your message across, getting your needs met, but also respecting and you've used that, you know that language as well respecting the needs of the other being, and I think it's the same thing with our pets. You know, if we think about it, that we are treating them with respect by creating those boundaries, by being consistent, by staying calm, and everybody's going to be better off in the long run. The other two extremes just set everybody up for failure, yeah, and it's like I love my cat.

Angie Winters: 22:50

I mean I treat my cat with you know respect and you know I can do some training with her and you know she wants to be with me and you know she's in the room with me like a dog all the time, follows me around but she's not so emotionally entangled with me. There's still. It's easy to see that wild nature still exists there. You know there's only. So're trying to teach her to do something With dogs. It's different because that emotional entanglement's there. The cat wants to be with me but when I leave she doesn't look out.

Amy Castro: 23:19

The window she doesn't cry and mourn your loss.

Angie Winters: 23:23

I don't have to prepare her to learn that it's okay. When I leave, she's already like don't let the door hit you, lady. But then when I come back, she's all over me To me, you know. So to me.

Angie Winters: 23:31

That's the difference in why I'm saying dogs need this firm but supportive guidance, more similar to children. They don't. They're not children, I don't think they're human children, but they still are a family member that deserves support and guidance and love. Love's already there. It's not like we have that much shortage of love for dogs. It's just that I don't know. Dogs learn things with typical training. Despite us and we love them, despite even the chaotic and sometimes dangerous behavior that they have, we still love them. We're failing them by keeping up this dog training, typical dog training mentality and, like I've said, I am very direct about it. I've been doing this for 28 years and there's no time. There's no time. I mean dogs need help. There's no time to beat around the bush about this. I was talking to a dog trainer and they saw my book and then they said you're very aggressive, your language in the book is very aggressive about dog training.

Amy Castro: 24:20

I think it's just assertive.

Angie Winters: 24:22

No, I said actually I disagree, it's not aggressive at all. I don't feel aggressive towards you. I mean there's some aggression here, but it's not coming from my side, but it's just direct. It's direct. Why even say anything or write anything if it's not going to be real or direct? It's not aggressive, it's just real. And so you know, I'm here for a dog, so I'm not here to get typical dog training world's approval.

Amy Castro: 24:46

Yeah Well, I will say I think and you can tell me if you think I'm wrong on this but having worked with terrible dog trainers and very well-intentioned and caring dog trainers, I also think that there's probably a certain element like especially focusing on those who really do care and really do believe in what they're doing. Parent hired a trainer and they taught me some techniques that seemed like they were working, and then they weren't working. I would probably be more likely to say it's something I'm doing wrong, or I haven't been consistent, or I'm just a big fat failure, or my dog is stupid, or my dog's just untrainable. And it's like I wonder how many people go back and say, hey, none of that worked, my dog's still doing this, or do they just kind of hide their heads and so you don't know what you don't know.

Amy Castro: 25:36

It's kind of like in rescue you rescue a dog, you adopt it out, or a cat or whatever it might be, and for many years I would follow up with every single one and then after a while you realize no news is good news, because do you really want to know how it turns out? Because you know unless, unless they want to give it back, there's not much I can do about it If they already put it to sleep or if they gave it away or whatever. So people don't go out of their way to tell you, oh, I gave that dog away. Or oh, I decided I didn't like that dog, so right, I mean, it's the shame. It's the shame, no.

Angie Winters: 26:14

And I believe also I agree with you Many, many dog trainers have their hearts in the right place and they're trying, but it's but anything that I've never been able to fix. And anybody else did something with some dog would say how'd you do that? What'd you do? What would you? That's how I've learned all this right. It's just by pure inching ahead, dragging, you know, finding one piece of information, put it together with another piece of information until I could see the whole picture and I could finally see. But I mean, lucky or unlucky, I've had the. I've had the experience that has been rescue training. I can, I can train dogs. I can train dogs to do tricks and I can train dogs They've been on television and print ads.

Angie Winters: 26:50

I mean I can do all that stuff. But that doesn't teach family skills and the things that dogs need in order to stay in their home and to be fulfilled and for there to be happy families, and it doesn't give parents the information they need. What I see the fault in it is shows and books making it appear. They water things down and they tend to make things appear like they're more effective than they really are, and then it's entertainment. It's entertainment.

Amy Castro: 27:13

Yeah, so obviously there's a lot of you use the term recipes, which is easy, easy to relate to, easy to understand, and it also I think it makes it less daunting to say there is a recipe Like it's, you know, you follow the recipe and you're going to get what you get. You don't follow the recipe, you're going to get something else, which is why my daughter does all the cooking for our household. Because I am not a good recipe follower, I'm not a good measurer, I don't. You know it's like, ah, just, you know eyeball it. But I love the what's not allowed process and the four steps, or four, you know four parts of that recipe, because it's it's such a simple but brilliant way to look at. And again, it's that it's setting that foundation. It's like what are the things that are not allowed? And then here is the plan for enforcing those boundaries. So could you just give us a quick overview of that?

Angie Winters: 28:01

Yeah, so the hardest part has been making it simple. So you know, that was extremely the hardest part was to make it simple, but I knew it had to be done and it has to. It can't just be simple, it also has to work. So to make something that works and said, well, I've I. I decided to.

Angie Winters: 28:19

Eventually, I just formed these recipes to teach skills, teach the family rules and teach skills, and then prescriptions for fixing fear and aggression and things that parents are going to come up against. You know, it's just true. So and then I have a crate recipe, a potty, perfect potty recipe for all aspects. So I came up with this what's not allowed recipe because dog after dog, regardless of the problem that it came to me with my parenting, was always the same, and so the dog's problems were all different. And so I started honing these set of techniques, that what things actually work on all of them, regardless of their issues. I mean, I've seen, I saw some weird things that I never thought would even exist, and just heartbreaking things. And then the fact that I could bring them all the way back and find a set of techniques and approaches and perspectives that works with all of them. Then I've said, I have to figure out a way. I have to figure out a way then to get this down into a simple recipe or communication form that parents can use. Everybody can rescue folks. So the what's not allowed recipe is so I can touch on it instead of going into the exact details, because the two chapters are, before that, simple chapters. But they have to set the stage and the parental perspective in order to effectively realize why I'm doing, why you're doing this recipe, and it's literally has four stacks.

Angie Winters: 29:34

So I help parents easily see the guidance moment right. So you got to see the guidance moment and you learn, and you see that by you start to learn what the dog is doing or feeling. Or you know, lift one front paw, it's unsure. You know, just a set of techniques that's easy to read, not some complicated dog body language chart, right, just a set of things that you're going to see in your dog. So, oh, this typically happens. I'll see this and seeing learning to recognize that point early, to give early guidance, because it's extremely effective. Then you, by empowering them with the recipe, they're not afraid to go ahead and you know, go ahead and start the recipe because they've got, they've got this tool in their back pocket.

Angie Winters: 30:12

So see, the moment that you need to approach the dog right and then disagree, give the what's not allowed guidance which is, ah, we don't do that. You know there's, there's five ways to show that you can do it with your facial expressions, with your body language, a little bit of a vocal displacing them, you know, or use a combination or any one of those that works on your dog and how dogs see it. But then the critical part that dog training misses is that once you give this guidance, this what's not allowed guidance, long enough, okay, and usually only takes first time something, and even in a bad case it could take one minute, which is only 60 seconds, but then parents usually do it for like four seconds and they're going. That didn't work. You know you hold this guidance, keep on. You know blocking or holding until they look to you and when the this this is critical this eye contact, right.

Angie Winters: 31:06

So then you hold it long enough that they, you hold that eye contact, then for one 1,000. You don't, you don't, they don't just glance at you and you hold it at one 1,000 to let it sink in, because dogs need that moment of guidance to that, that clear guidance to let it sink in, otherwise it's just a distraction here. Go to this, go to this. They're not really learning this is, by the way they learn in nature is to actually to hold that eye contact. And then, but here's what you can do. And then you just bring in this full excitement. Here's what you can do in this time or this area, here's what I want you to do. And then you do the action with them so that you know this is a great thing. You know, you just overplay this ending part, right, but you're very firm about the other part, very firm. It's never going to happen, it's never going to be allowed.

Angie Winters: 31:52

And then, once you convey this, run through this recipe. If you have to run through it again, you just hold the eye contact just a little bit longer. It's not staring your dog down angrily, you're not pointing at your dog, it's just. I just know that dogs pay attention to that. There's room for for you know, adjusting it to your dog's temperament, your dog's breed, age, everything. It doesn't just work on puppies and it doesn't just work on older dogs, it doesn't work on certain breeds, it doesn't work on just males and not females. All that stuff is not something to concentrate on. The breed comes into play with fulfillment, you know, and what they want to do, and fulfilling those drives. That comes in fulfillment, but not for guidance. You may have to bring a higher level, but that's just the dog's wiring.

Amy Castro: 32:34

Yeah, I mean, I think about it along the same lines as, let's say, you've got the fireplace going right and you see your kid heading over there and it's like, okay, you already know they're going to be up to no good Like they were. We were over here doing something else. You see the kid heading over there. It's like, would you wait until they stuck their hand in the fireplace or do you realize at a certain point that there is a point where you want to get that attention? You know, and noticing that behavior, do you want to do it when they're halfway across the room heading there? Maybe not, but once their intent is fairly obvious, you know, and you get to know that, you get to know how your kid operates.

Amy Castro: 33:17

And I think it's the same thing with your pet. My Doberman was very dog reactive. You know, when you're going to go out to the park, you're going to run into a dog and when you see that dog 50 yards away, before your dog even sees it, without creating anxiety, because you got to be careful about that. But you know, be prepared to implement the steps Right, right and you won't create anxiety.

Angie Winters: 33:33

You won't create anxiety when you're emotionally neutral.

Amy Castro: 33:36

That's right, because you're prepared for what's getting ready to happen and you have a process in place.

Angie Winters: 33:40

Right and what you, what you just talked about, amy, I'm glad you said that it was because that's a perfect example of early guidance and how much it's so much more effective early on than it. You still have to address it If you've missed, if you've missed the guidance moment, it's already happening. You still have to address it while it's happening. You know you still have to do something and then make sure everybody's safe and then just make your plan for how you're going to give earlier guidance next time. So, yes, I mean, people were like they stand there and watch their dog and they watch their dog. It's like if you already see, if a dog already does this, and right, that's early, it's so effective, it's so effective. You know. It's like, don't wait for them to be aggressive over the other dog, if you already know your dog has that. And then and they learn so much faster that way they're like, oh, okay, that's never going to be allowed.

Angie Winters: 34:26

They start realizing when dogs, when you're very consistent, like you know, just even even several repetitions of being consistent with something and your attitude is perfectly neutral, like this is never going to be allowed, I've got, I know what I'm going to do each time you try that they start believing in a dog world. Something is always allowed or never allowed, right? It's when you start mixing those things up for them that that's all that chaotic behavior and they're like it just seems to come out of nowhere. It's like it never comes out of nowhere. It's either for dogs. You have to completely convince them that it's never going to be allowed.

Angie Winters: 35:02

But if you bring frustration and fear to it, they will not be learning that. They'll only be learning about what the hell? What's going on? What are you doing? Like you know, is this about where my Paul was now, or is this necessarily about what I was? You cannot bring any frustration. Plus, they just kind of just half the time. They just either fear you or dismiss you If you bring this anxiety and kind of out of control energy that they just dismiss you or they become fearful of you.

Angie Winters: 35:23

They don't trust you. So but once they trust you and everything, and you just keep bringing this with emotional neutral things, which is why I put the you know, the human faces in the book. Like you know, go into a mirror and look at this human face. You might not think you're making that face, that you have to make sure that you're, that you're what your emotionally neutral face looks like and that right there is golden, like it gives you. Literally you're 50% there when you, when you realize that how to keep emotionally neutral, give the guidance and then the dog. Pretty soon it's like they just realized this is never allowed. So then it's just exactly how, when they get into a routine and they want to do the same thing at the same time with the same stuff, whatever, you just make them believe this is the routine.

Amy Castro: 36:05

This is how we do it, yeah, and I love giving them that alternative and that works with no, no.

Angie Winters: 36:13

But if you redirect them to doing something else, especially if you're like hey, let's work on this puzzle, or hey, let's make some cookies, or come help me stir the you know, stir the salad that I'm making, whatever it is, you know, it's like, it's just, it's engaging, and so it becomes much more enticing and interesting than whatever it was that they were getting ready to go do Right, I mean, and when you're giving that parental guidance and providing those alternatives to kids, they can understand a little more gray, they can understand a little more subtle, like, yeah, I mean, sometimes it seems like that was unfair, that they were doing that to you, but really you know there's nothing you can do about that. All you can do is control your own thing, and so it's better to make this choice. Instead, you can give them that kind of guidance. You know, as they get older too, you can give them more words and more. You know past and present. You know guidance dogs it's always black and white in the moment or they can't learn Right. So those are the main differences in parenting giving guidance to the dogs and kids. So they both deserve to have it in the way that they understand Right.

Angie Winters: 37:13

And so, yeah, what you're saying about the alternative, the big, big problem with typical dog training is they're like, yeah, we give them the alternative, but the alternative is distraction with a treat, right, so they think they're giving them an alternative. Look to me for that. That stuff, even with a highly food driven dog, wears off fast for most of them and they don't completely understand it's an incomplete teaching moment. Off fast for most of them and they don't completely understand it's an incomplete teaching moment. You know. Just to say no as an incomplete teaching moment, you got to provide the yes. But also to do it fast and to say here's a distraction does not is not a teaching moment. You know, it's just a distraction, that's all it is. Yeah.

Amy Castro: 37:49

Yeah, Good, good point, Good point. So is there a particular whether it's your own personal experience or a pet parent coming back and using these techniques like a success story that you would share that jumps out? I know you've had many, but any in particular that jump out as being memorable.

Angie Winters: 38:09

One of the cases I had was with a dog named Junior, because he's kind of like famous around here and everything they went through in the rescues, because he's kind of like famous around here and everything they went through in the rescues. And he'd gone through trainer after trainer and, you know, tear apart crates and, could you know, end up being put to sleep or being housed in a kennel to be a if that's kennel, to be a blood donor for the rest of his life. There was just nothing, no, no trainer. So then they contacted me, but I was very busy with other dogs and I was, you know, doing cases that were just as bad. I, you know, doing cases that were just as bad. I could only do so many at a time with my also raising two kids, and so I couldn't get him. Well, in the meantime, a train obedience trainer took him and took him to boot camp for two weeks and said he is, that he had gotten rid of his dog aggression and then he can now be adopted. Well then, as soon as he went back and was in any adoption event or whatever, all the, all the the things came back. But but when he was around that trainer he was so afraid of that trainer that he didn't attack the trainer's dogs. But he still didn't learn that he couldn't attack any other dogs. It was just fear, just for. And then I, I couldn't even by the time I got him, I couldn't use a leash or anything because he was afraid of a raised hand, a leash, everything. So there you got that side of the strict obedience. Right, we're going to cure this dog aggression, right?

Angie Winters: 39:16

Well then, when I figured out his exact thing was that he was, you know, it was anxiety, and he was, you know, he had just gotten completely off track and he would just constantly listen. For these tiny noises to be like loud noises wouldn't even bother him. I mean, he's just in this loud kennel environment forever, so he's listening for like little like when the water would go into the ice cube trays in the thing, or the house would creak in the wind a little bit, just like you just freeze. It was all these freezing, freezing, freezing moments. So I undid that, you know.

Angie Winters: 39:41

I got that, you know, just by providing the firm but supportive parenting. Ah, we don't, you know, don't pay attention to that. Don't pay attention to that. Here's what you can do. Don't pay attention to that. Here's what you can do, on and on. Now it's more extreme. Typical parents aren't going to have cases like this. He was unadoptable. This is extreme. So, 24 hours constantly, let's do this? No, let's do this. But what had created this initially was all this, all positive, only use treats and distractions. So that had created this aggression. And then that's one side which created one problem, and then the obedience trader created the other problem.

Angie Winters: 40:16

Yeah, and so within this this case took me it typically took me two weeks to to fix a dog and get it adoptable and this I think he took three or four weeks. It was an extreme case. But I point out that and tell his story and you can see video with the digital companion that runs to the book on my website. And I point that out because it shows how neither one of those typical dog training things work and they cause problems but the firm but supportive parenting in this book is what cured him.

Amy Castro: 40:45

Yeah, I mean that requires a level of dedication that I think you know. It kind of goes back to picking the right dog for yourself or pet, but also knowing am I ready for a pet, am I ready to put in this level of work or level of dedication? You know it's the same. You know it's the same with any kind of parenting Are you ready to be a parent or are you not? Are you ready to?

Amy Castro: 41:04

do it 24, seven kind of thing. Do you have the time or the bandwidth to do it? So let's talk about where people can get the book and, just because that was something that I thought was a unique feature, is that QR code in the book where you can get that, cause it's you know it's it's really easy to kind of read and skim a book. It's another thing to work through, like exercises and a workbook, and I think that's such an advantage to have that companion. So first let's start with where's the best place for people to get the book, and we'll put links up in the show notes.

Angie Winters: 41:41

Yeah, so the best. I don't know if you had the. You have the front cover of it, the don't train your dog. It's at Amazon. You can get it on Amazon and our website is parentingfordogscom, with the number four, parenting for dogs.

Angie Winters: 41:49

And the book has the QR code, as you mentioned in the introduction, and so you can totally learn everything you need to learn in this by reading the book. You know, just with text, but to add a level of understanding or something like I'm not quite sure you know exactly how I would do that with my dog. Then they can scan this QR code and there's a digital companion that exists at parentingfordogscom that has, and you get free access to that with the book. And then it has the companion videos that show me doing it and show dogs doing these things in real life. They've been recorded over the years of me working with dogs, so you can watch the videos that go with the chapters of the book if you want to. You don't have to. You may want to go back and redo, redo them. You can watch that digital companion forever, Anytime that you feel like you want to.

Angie Winters: 42:33

Oh, let me see that dog body language again when she said here, you know the video will stop and it'll say, right here, see what he's doing there. You know, it'll, it'll, it'll. It gives you a level of understanding. That's. That's pretty comprehensive. And then also the recipes and the charts or anything that you might want to remind yourself of. Are there's free downloadables of that? You can put them on your refrigerator, hang them on your wall when you're working a recipe.

Amy Castro: 42:55

Oh yeah, that's the four steps that I want to keep focusing on, yeah, and I think the graphics are so great because to me, especially if you have older children in your home, it's just as important that they're consistent with these behaviors as well.

Amy Castro: 43:10

And they're probably not going to sit down and read the dog book, you know it's like, but if you had the, you know the four steps, or this is what we're working on this week, and you know, make sure you do this when you go out the back door, every time when you go out with Bluey or whatever the case may be.

Amy Castro: 43:28

Well, angie, thank you so much for being on the show today and for sharing your, your wisdom, your experience and just a whole nother way to look at, not training our dogs, but, you know, living life with our dogs and living it in a way where it's a quality of life for us and for them, and I think that you know. On one hand, I think it's very empowering for me as a dog parent or a dog owner or whatever you want to call yourself, but it also is very freeing in a lot of ways, because I start thinking about the fact that my dogs I don't think I have a dog in the house that knows heel, but they walk nicely on a leash. They come in. When I tell them to come in from outside, they stop barking. When I tell them you know what I mean it's like it's they're living life in the way that I need them to live it and also I think we're meeting their needs for, you know, enrichment and living lives the way that dogs should be living lives, as opposed to humans.

Angie Winters: 44:16

I can't imagine living without it, without that. You know, dog family member. And the reason why you have that is because you concentrated on the things that were important for family life, which is don't run out the door in front of trucks or after other dogs, Don't bite kids. You concentrated on teaching those instead of obedience. All right Tricks, tricks for obedience.

Amy Castro: 44:38

Yeah, exactly. Well, like I said, thank you so much for being here and we'll put the notes, the show notes, we'll have links so that people can get access to the book and all the resources that you have available for them. So we really, really appreciate you being here.

Angie Winters: 44:52

Thank you. I appreciate you having me on and your efforts towards dogs. Thank you.

Amy Castro: 44:55

Thanks and you. I appreciate you having me on and your efforts towards dogs. Thank you, thanks, and everybody. Like I say every week, thank you for listening to another episode of the show. Be sure if you've got anybody in your life that is bringing a dog into their home or is experiencing some issues with their dog, this book will give you a completely different way of looking at how to not only create good relationships but fix problems along the way. So make sure that you share this far and wide and we will see you on another episode next week.

Amy Castro: 45:23

Thanks for listening to Starlight Pet Talk. Be sure to visit our website at wwwstarlightpettalkcom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app, so you'll never miss a show. If you enjoyed and found value in today's episode, we'd appreciate a rating on Apple. Or if you'd simply tell a friend about the show, that would be great too. Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode of Starlight Pet Talk and if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.

Amy Castro: 45:56

Thanks for listening to Starlight Pet Talk. Be sure to visit our website at starlightpettalkcom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss a show. And hey, if you like this show, text someone right now and say I've got a podcast recommendation. You need to check the show out and tell them to listen and let you know what they think. Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode of Starlight Pet Talk. And if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.