Myths and Truths about Mutts vs. Purebred Dogs

The "Adopt Don't Shop" movement has divided dog lovers over the past few years into two camps; those who believe people should only get dogs from rescues or shelters and those who believe getting dogs from breeders is the best option. In this episode, Amy In this episode, Amy chats with Sandy Weaver, an AKC judge and Siberian Husky enthusiast, about the ongoing debate between the "Adopt Don't Shop" movement and purchasing from breeders. They explore the myths and truths about Mutts vs. Pure Bred Dogs, discussing the benefits of both options, considerations for future pet parents, the rise of the "Doodle Craze," and tips for finding responsible breeders. Tune in for valuable insights on making informed decisions about where to acquire your next dog!

Shoutouts in this episode:

American Kennel Club (AKC)
Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals (OFA)

Transcript

Myths and Truths about Mutts vs. Purebred Dogs with Sandy Weaver

Announcer: Welcome to the Starlight Pet Talk Podcast, where we'll talk about and explore ways to help pet parents and future pet parents learn everything they need to know to have a happy and healthy relationship with their pet. So sit up and stay for Starlight Pet Talk rescue adoption and pet parenting done right.

Amy Castro: Welcome to Starlight Pet Talk. I'm your host, Amy Castro. Adopt Don't Shop has been the dividing line between those who believe that people should only get dogs from shelters and rescues, and those who believe that purebred lines of dogs should be cultivated and sought out by buyers who are looking for a dog, whose lineage they'll know and whose behavior and temperament they'll be able to predict.

Amy Castro: In today's episode, we're going to explore the myths and the facts of adopting and shopping to help those who are maybe on the fence make an educated decision, because the bottom line is everybody needs to choose the dog that is the best fit for them. My guest today is Sandy Weaver. Sandy is an author, a consultant, and professional speaker who works with veterinarians to create happy hospital cultures and more resilient teams.

Amy Castro: She also judges the AKC working group, some of the non-sporting breeds, Junior Showmanship, and is a monthly columnist for Canine Chronicle Magazine. She's been involved in the sport of dogs over 40 years, showing Siberian Huskies in confirmation, obedience, rally, agility, barn hunt, fast cat, cat, working pack dog, canine musical freestyle, and has even done therapy work with two of her dogs. When she's not traveling to consult, speak, or judge she's spoiling her Siberian Husky and her standard poodle. And if you want to know more about Sandy and all of the great work that she does, her website is www.centerforworkplacehappiness.com.  And Sandy, thank you so much for being here today withme.

Sandy Weaver: Good morning, Amy. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you.

Amy Castro: Awesome, you've, you've done so much in the world of dogs, that's why I've been super excited to have you on the show today. But before we get into kind of some of the Q and A that we're going to talk about, can you tell us some of these things? I mean, I know what confirmation is, I know what obedience is and I know what agility is, but what is rally and barn hunt and fast cat?

Sandy Weaver: Okay. Rally obedience is, rally obedience is sort of like agility in that the judge lays a course out and you have to do the course in order. But instead of having obstacles, you've got little signs that tell you what you're supposed to do. It might be stop, sit, walk around your dog and then go forward.

Sandy Weaver: The judge just tells you to start and you do the course and it's timed and it's a lot of fun. It's kind of stupid fun. If you have a CGC on your dog, rally is the next great place to go.  CGC kind of teaches you and your dog how to work together and then you move into rally obedience and that kind of teaches you how to polish it a little bit.

Sandy Weaver: And there's different levels of rally. You can go all the way up to master level of rally and you can get a rally championship.  But if you, it's just a fun thing to do with your dog, and I love titling dogs because it gives you a focus and something to work for. So it reminds me, and 

Amy Castro: CGC is Canine Good Citizen, correct?

Sandy Weaver: Canine Good Citizen. Exactly. And canine good citizen is actually something really good to get, especially if you live in an apartment or in a city that has some laws about what breeds can and can't be around and have to wear a muzzle or you know, things like that. CGC is Canine Good Citizen, and it is recognized by a lot of insurance companies.

Sandy Weaver: A lot of apartment companies, you know, that own apartment complexes, they recognize that the CGC dog means you are a better owner because you had done some learning and some working with your dog. 

Amy Castro: Awesome.  And you don’t have to have a pure, it doesn't have to be a purebred dog to be a Canine Good Citizen.

Sandy Weaver: No, AKC has a PALS registry and I don't,  Pets Are Loving Support, I think is what PALS stands for. It's something like that. Yeah, it's a separate registry and you can register and you can play almost all the games.

Sandy Weaver: You can't play confirmation because the reason for confirmation dog shows, and that is like Westminster Kennel Club, you know the big fancy shows that you see on television. The reason those exist is to prove breeding stock. And since purebred dogs get bred and, and mixed breed dogs generally don't, they come from the shelter that requires a spay neuter, then those can still play the performance events. They just can't play confirmation. 

Amy Castro: Okay, and what about barn hunt and the fast cat and cat? 

Sandy Weaver: Okay, so I'll tell you, let's go with cat first. It sounds like animals are, are involved and no animals are involved in cat or fast cats.

Sandy Weaver: There are lure coursing events and lure coursing titles available to dogs that are sight hounds, that their job is lure coursing. Their job is to chase down prey and so they can get lure coursing. Fast cat and cat are for the rest of our dogs that aren't sight hounds, so that because they like to chase things too.

Sandy Weaver: I mean, just look at dogs take squirrels, right? So it's a plastic bag on a string and the string is run right along the top of the ground. The plastic bag moves in fun ways, so it's very enticing and it triggers the dog's prey drive fast. Fast cat is a hundred yard dash. It's a straight line and somebody releases the dog, the dog chases the bunny, and that's what it's called, and runs to the other end of the shoot a hundred yards away plus about another 30 to 50 yards to give the dog runout time because a lot of them are really cooking. And so you can, you can earn titles that way. There's Bcat is the first fast cat title, then there's D cat, then there's F cat, and there are some dogs that have like Fcat 69’s.

Sandy Weaver: I mean they, every time you add 500 more points, which is, which are calculated based on the dog's speed and size, you add another level of F cat. So  I mean there's no training for that. The dog either does it or doesn't. My Siberian is really good at Fast Cat and my, 

Amy Castro: I've seen the pictures of her

Amy Castro: Yeah, she's like, her feet don't even look like they're touching the ground. In some of those photos that I've seen, 

Sandy Weaver: They're not. She's half the size of the standard poodle. Just about, I mean, her legs are about half the length of his, but he is for him, it's not Chase the Bunny, it's the run to Mom game. So he's much slower than she is.

Sandy Weaver: But he likes it still. And then Cat is the big field version where , it's a 600 yard loop for larger dogs. It can be smaller for older or smaller dogs, so it can be 200, 400 or 600. And I say loop, but the bunny goes straight out, takes a jag that way, takes a jag that way, might come back in this way, goes out that way.

Sandy Weaver: Oh, I got off the screen. It just goes in all kinds of random directions. And this is not Archie's game. This is not the run to mom game. He's like, no, it's not going in the straight line. That bunny's wrong. 

Amy Castro: Taking the path of least resistance to get to my mom.

Sandy Weaver: Exactly. Well, and I'm the releaser in cat.

Sandy Weaver: It only takes one person in Fast Cat, it takes two. Somebody has to hold the dog and release them, and then the dog at the other end is caught usually by the owner. It's usually the way it works, but it doesn't have to. But in Cat, the big field, it only takes one person because the lure goes out, goes around, and comes back to the person who released.

Sandy Weaver: So Archie's like, no, I'm standing here with mom, I’m good. Barn hunt, live animals are used, and they, there are rats used in barn hunt, but the rats are perfectly safe and their safety is paramount. Their comfort and safety is paramount. The rats are raised by people who play barn hunt, who train barn hunt, and so they're used to dogs.

Sandy Weaver: They love dogs. They're in a really safe piece of PVC plastic tubing. It really is plumbing stuff right down to the little thing that screws in the end. It's plumbing PVC, it's painted and they use straw bales, not hay bales. They use straw bales and loose straw, and they lay these tubes with either nothing in them, dirty rat litter in them, or live rats in them around the ring,

Sandy Weaver: and they cover them with loose straw. They never tuck them into the hay bale or the straw bales because that would cut off the airflow for the rat. And the rats do a certain amount of runs, then they get changed out with other rats. But they love getting in their tubes because that's where the best treats are.

Sandy Weaver: And they love the dogs. They love the game and the dog's job. This is a really cool game because you are working as a team with your dog, but you are not the team leader. The dog is the leader because the dog's using their nose and their ears and their, whiskers to sense not just the scent of the rat, but movement and warmth because that's the difference between the dirty rat tube with no rat in it and the tube with a rat in it is the rat's warmth and possible movement.

Sandy Weaver: So the dog is the team leader, and you just have to trust your dog and tell the judge when you think your dog has found a rat. And if you're right, yay. And if you're not right, game over. But the cool thing about that is the dog always wins if you call the wrong thing. If you call a rat and it's not a rat, the judge shows you where the closest rat is and you get to take your dog to that rat and let them find that one.

Sandy Weaver: So they always win before they leave. Which is really cool.

Amy Castro: Because you don't want them to get discouraged.

Sandy Weaver: No, no. They always get to win and the rats always win too, because they get really good treats for going in their tubes. 

Amy Castro: And the dog doesn't ever come in contact with the rat then it's just sniff it out and then…. 

Sandy Weaver: No.

Amy Castro: Does it, does it signal you to let you know that he found like sit down or do something to let you know he found it?

Sandy Weaver: Every dog, yes. Every dog has a different way of alerting. And some dogs you can teach how to alert and I just like to see what my dog does and just call it on what the dog does.

Sandy Weaver: Casey, when she gets, when she's on a rat, she puts her nose on the tube and her tail wags really hard and really fast. And so that's how I know she's got a rat. 

Amy Castro: Interesting.  So all of these activities and it was, interesting you mentioned how your poodle is like, yeah, this is not my game.

Amy Castro: Whereas other dogs, the sight hounds, things like greyhounds, things like that's going to be their game. And, and that kind of ties into my question that I wanted to talk to you about. Why do specific breeds exist? For those who feel, nobody should ever breed dogs. Each breed is bred to have a specific purpose, and a specific job.

Amy Castro: And that's why these activities flesh out those who are good at those things. Is that right? 

Sandy Weaver: Right. Yes. Absolutely. That is a, a great way to launch this piece of it. Thank you. If we don't breed dogs, where do police dogs come from? If we don't breed dogs, where do service dogs come?

Sandy Weaver: If we don't breed dogs, where do fabulous companion dogs come from? The cool thing about purebred dogs is that you can decide what you want to live with, what personality you want to live with, what kind of coat do you want to live with? Does it shed, does it not shed, is it long, is it short? Do you have to take it to the groomers or can you do it yourself?

Sandy Weaver: Can you throw them in on a picnic table in the backyard with a hose and some soap and bathe them down? Let them shake off and they're done, or do we go to the groomers? Every month looking at you, Archie the poodle. So you can decide do you want a dog that retrieves, then you want a gun dog?

Sandy Weaver: You want a dog that was bred to work with hunters because they're bred to work back to you, or you want a herding dog because they're bred to work back to their person. If you want a running partner, then you want a sled dog because they're bred to run in a straight line all day long. And they're not bred necessarily to come back to their person.

Sandy Weaver: So sled dogs have a reputation of running away. They're not running away. They just don't have any idea that you're not on the sled behind them where you're supposed to be. Because that's what they're bred for. So yeah, if we don't have purpose bred dogs, then we lose the best working dogs for protection,

Sandy Weaver: for the military, for seeing eye dogs, guide dogs, service dogs, we lose all of that, but we also lose heritage breeds that were designed for a purpose. Even the toy breeds, which you mean, you look at them and you go, they, they can't possibly have a purpose. Their purpose was to be fabulous companions. The Chinese used them to, well, actually the Europeans did too, to attract fleas away from the people, so the fleas would bite the nice warm dog instead of the person.

Sandy Weaver: The dogs didn't get the plague, as far as I know, the people did, and they got them from flea bites, so it was a safety issue. Now having a small dog or a few small dogs around is pleasant, and it also helps to keep the fleas from biting you. And for generations, people have wanted a dog that does a certain job,

Sandy Weaver: or looks a certain way or behaves a certain way, and you get that with structured breeding program. 

Amy Castro: That's an excellent point. The concept of structured breeding program. So let's talk about the pros and cons of adopting versus shopping. So as a dog professional, what do you think are the advantages of going to a rescue or a shelter to get a dog?

Amy Castro: Because you, you can find purebred dogs in shelters, all of all of the time. I mean, you mentioned sled dogs, Huskies in our Houston area and end up in shelters a lot because of exactly what you said. They're runners and people don't realize what they're getting into when they get them and they take off and the people get fed up and they sometimes just stop looking for them at that point.

Sandy Weaver: Or they get so far away because they can get far away really fast. I have helped a bunch of friends look for Siberians many times through the years and actually have picked mine up from the shelter twice when they got out of the yard. And I was so grateful that animal control got them so that I could go get them and they were safe.

Sandy Weaver: I'm happy to pay that fine, happy to pay, not happy that the dogs get out, but happy to pay the fine to go pick them back up again. Because then I know they’re safe.  First, let's talk about Adopt Don't Shop. Adopting is shopping. It's, a really cool little phrase, but adopting is shopping.

Sandy Weaver: Anytime that you are looking around and making a specific choice, you are shopping. So it, I kind of push back on that phrase a little bit. It's cute, it's catchy, it's fun. But it puts people at odds with each other and you really, anybody who's getting a dog, whether you're getting it from a shelter, or whether you're getting it from a breeder, and let's talk about the different kinds of breeders.

Sandy Weaver: So we get it from the right kind of breeder. But if you're, if you're looking for the right fit for your family, you're shopping and you should be shopping because adding a dog to your life is a commitment. It's a commitment if it's a puppy for 12 to 15 to 20 years sometimes, and you really do need to make sure that the dog is the right fit.

Sandy Weaver: So shop, please shop, shop a lot. Whether you rescue or whether you get from a breeder, just please don't shop in pet stores, please. 

Amy Castro: Yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that. Yeah. Okay. I can't believe that concept did not come to me beforehand because duh, whether or not you're going to a breeder or a shelter, like you said, you should,

Amy Castro: and this, I think people do make a mistake. They don't think about what are they shopping for, right? So it's like, I'm going to go to the shelter and I'm going to just look at the dogs and see what feels right to me, or something like that. I mean, I've heard people say things like that over, over and over, but they probably would be a lot smarter,

Amy Castro: to go before they go to the shelter to, do some assessment of what they're looking for in a dog. What activity level are you expecting out of a dog? What, is your, like you said before the shedding level, how much are you willing to put up with on that? Are you looking for something that's going to be a sit on your lap companion or a running partner?

Amy Castro: Those are going to be probably two different dogs. I mean, you might get lucky and find one that'll do both. 

Sandy Weaver: Yeah. And, you talked about the benefits of going to a shelter. Well, I mean, there's the heart benefit of going to a shelter to adopt. I just, I love the fact that shelters exist. I love the fact that rescues exist and I love the fact that, that most people don't know, is that there are rescues, rescue groups for every single breed.

Sandy Weaver: and that's why sometimes you don't find a lot of the pure breds in the shelter. The Golden Retriever Club of America way back in the 1970s invented rescue as it's done now. Back then there were animal shelters. Dogs were held for three days or five days if they had a big enough one, and then they were put down if they weren't found or if somebody didn't wander in and adopt them.

Sandy Weaver: And the Golden Retriever Club of America was appalled at how many golden retrievers were ending up in shelters across the country. And so they formed Golden Retriever Rescue, and that has been the model for every kind of rescue and it's mixed breed rescue, old dog rescue, toy dog rescue, but almost every breed's parent club,

Sandy Weaver: which is like the Golden Retriever Club of America, the Siberian Husky Club of America, the Poodle Club of America. They almost all have a rescue arm. So if, when you look at it and you say, well, gosh, I think maybe I want a purebred dog, but I really don't want a puppy, or I really don't. Know how to do this right?

Sandy Weaver: Just go to their, go to the parent club and you can just Google breed name Club of America and you'll get it. Even if that's not actually their name. Google can figure that out. So, sometimes it's, Chow Chow Fanciers of America. That's not right. But, but it might be. So sometimes their names are a little different the American Tibetan Mastiff Association.

Sandy Weaver: But if you, if you do Tibetan Mastiff Club of America, you'll get it. So you can find them that way. And as you said, there are a lot of pure breds in the shelters. A lot of times they get sprung, sometimes not.

Amy Castro: So what about if somebody decided, Hey, I think we want to get a dog.

Amy Castro: They've researched some of the breeds. For whatever reason decided I didn't want to go with a purebred dog. I wanted to look at mixed breed dogs. Other than kind of looking at age and activity level, are there other things that people can do when they go to a shelter because you're pulling this dog from a loud, noisy environment and you might take it outside for a little while, or take it up to a visiting room for a little while.

Amy Castro: What should people be looking for when they're visiting with that dog? 

Sandy Weaver: Well, this is where assuming they've done their homework and they sort of know what they're looking for before they walk in. This is where I just love the idea of I'll know when the dog is right. I have a dear friend who has just adopted a mixed breed dog named Eden,

Sandy Weaver: and she wasn't a hundred percent sure Eden was going to be a good fit, but she felt like Eden was going to be a good fit. Eden was the age she wanted, which was young, but not too young. She was the size she wanted. She was short, tight, coated, which she wanted. She's just a compact, sturdy little dog, and so she fostered.

Sandy Weaver: So always with shelter, see if you can, if you have a dog that you think might be right, but you're not a thousand percent certain offer to foster because then when you take the dog out of the shelter situation, which is a very unnatural and very stressful place for a lot of dogs, when you take the dog out and keep them for a couple of weeks or three weeks, or four weeks or six weeks, as my friend did before she decided, that Eden wasn't going anywhere.

Sandy Weaver: She watched her blossom and I met her the second day that Angela had her and I thought, oh, this one, when she starts opening up, when she starts getting over the kind of stress that she's under. She's going to be a cool dog. . Yeah. And she really is. I knew by the time three weeks had passed, I knew Angela wasn't going to be able to give her back.

Sandy Weaver: I knew that she was, that's a firm placement. And Eden landed in a fabulous home and a fabulous heart. And that's a really cool way to do it. But I think really, the dog can kind of tell you if you don't know how to read dog body language, study up on that before you go. A lot of people think they know where's saying well, he's wagging his tail, he's wagging his tail so he is not going to bite me.

Sandy Weaver: Sometimes dogs wag their tail because they like to bite. Not good. Whoopsy.

Amy Castro: It's amazing how many people don't understand dog body language. It's kind of shocking. And the one thing I would say too is that, obviously not all shelters and rescues are created equal, so number one, you can't necessarily

Amy Castro: believe everything that the shelter worker says. And it's not, I'm not saying they're trying to be deceptive, but many times the people that I have met don't know a lot about dog body language, and so they'll label something as aggressive because it barks at the fence. But if you take it out, it stops doing that, 

Amy Castro: Maybe has a little barrier aggression or something like that. Or they'll say something's friendly, but it's giving you the whale eye and kind of looking at you, looking at you crazy. And it's like, yeah, but I'm a stranger so I'm not going to just pick this dog up off the ground. You know? And you, I need to know what I'm looking at.

Amy Castro: The other thing I would say too about the breeds, and I will say this as somebody who is in rescue, when we advertise dogs, and even cats too, but when we advertise dogs, everybody wants to know what kind of dog is it? I don't know. I have no idea. I did not see the parents do their thing and I did not see those puppies born in most instances.

Amy Castro: I mean, we do, we have had situations obviously where we get mama dogs who are pregnant, but we still don't even know what she is. And it's interesting, we had a litter of puppies recently that I would've probably put money down that mom was a red healer, and when those puppies’ DNA came back, it had like 2% healer in it.

Amy Castro: Who knows what she was, maybe she did have some healer in her, but she obviously had a lot of other stuff in there. And obviously we didn't know who dad was. So, but yet, like I said, people want to know, what do you think it is? Or when we advertise animals online, you can't post that animal until you pick at least one breed.

Amy Castro: And so we're kind of making it up. It's, we're not, it's not a deception thing, we have to call it something. So we guess it's this, or we guess it's that. It's a guesstimate. And so the only way you'll ever really know what's in that dog is to do a DNA test, and you know, not all of those are created equal either.

Sandy Weaver: And on a mixed breed dog, they're not going to have as predictable a temperament as a purebred dog will. A well-bred purebred dog? A well bread, a well bred purebred dog. Those should be very predictable and the breeder can tell you what to expect from a temperament standpoint.

Sandy Weaver: And you just don't know that ever with a mixed breed dog. Even with the intentional mixed breeds like the doodle breeds and the, the visy poo breeds. Those are intentional mixed breeds and sometimes they're done with by good breeders and sometimes, sadly they're not, and they're not predictable because they're not a breed yet.

Sandy Weaver: And so you can't really know how the dog's going to react. So you have to go with what you know about dogs and what this one feels like inside your heart when you're visiting with it. And do visit. Don't just say, I'll take that one and take it home with you. Yeah, I mean, you can get home and you try to feed it and you put your hand down there to put the bowl down and you get bit, because it's resource guarding, you know?

Sandy Weaver: It's never had a good meal or people have stolen its food from it. And so, so there's like, you know what? You, you put your hand next to my bowl? No, it's my bowl. You can't know that unless you spend some time with the dog first. 

Amy Castro: Absolutely.  Back to your point about fostering.

Amy Castro: Some of the shelters that I've been involved with didn't have a fostering program. So the next question is what their return policy is. And I know people say, oh, I hate to think about returning a dog, but you're better off returning a dog that's not a fit so that it can find a home that is a proper fit, than to keep a dog that they can make you miserable and you’re making the dog miserable.

Amy Castro: So ask what the return policy is. Now, you may not get your money back, but most of them will allow some period of time, whether it's two weeks or a month, to allow you to bring back the dog. But always ask that question because one particular shelter, it was 30 days if you came in on the 32nd day and said this isn't working out.

Amy Castro: Sorry, it's your dog now. So definitely ask those questions. 

Sandy Weaver: I did not know that some shelters had returned policies. Never heard that. 

Amy Castro: Yeah. And then they don't always advertise it because they don't want to assume ….. 

Sandy Weaver: They don't want the animal back. They want it to go to leave and stay in that home.

Sandy Weaver: But you're right. If it's not the right home, it's not fair for you. And it's really not fair for the dog. The dog deserves to have a good fit home. And if you are not, let it find one.

Amy Castro: We, we have a joke around here when we bring in dogs, like we've pulled dogs for shelters and things like that.

Amy Castro: Well, the dog that you saw in the shelter is not the dog that's, you're going to see when you get it in your house. And the dog that you see in your house the first day is not going to be the same dog four days later. Like it's a 70, well, three days later, about, after about 72 hours that you're, that's when you're going to start to see that dog's personality emerge.

Amy Castro: For most dogs. If they're like super terrified, it's going to take longer than that, but for the most part, they're very different in that first day than the third or fourth day. So you do need to give it some time to see what emerges and how that per, how that dog's personality blossoms for good or for bad.

Amy Castro: You know, sometimes it doesn't always work, work well. 

Sandy Weaver: And this tiny caveat for first time dog owners, if you're listening to this and you don't have a dog and you're thinking about getting a dog please understand that dogs love routines. Just like babies love routines, dogs love routines, so figure out what the dog's rhythm of the day is going to be and set it up right away.

Sandy Weaver: So, you know, if the dog's going to eat three times a day, make it the same three times every day and then take the dog out to potty. And if the dog needs to nap while you do online meetings or whatever, then the dog needs to learn to nap in their crate and be quiet so that you can work. So dogs love routines.

Amy Castro: Yes, they definitely, definitely do. And they'll let you know, I mean, if they're used to eating at a certain time and you slip, you're going to hear it. My bulldog will let me know right away if I'm a little off kilter on the time, or I haven't gotten out there with lunch quickly enough. 

Amy Castro: All right. So let's, let's move on and talk about the different types of breeders so that people know when they're out there. Because I see this a lot on Facebook in neighborhood groups. It's like, oh, I want to get a X, Y, Z. Can you tell me who to get it from? My first thing is, don't ask some rando on Facebook.

Amy Castro: I mean, do your homework, but what should people be looking for?

Sandy Weaver: What you should be looking for is often what you don't find, because we don't make ourselves really easy to find sometimes, and I'm going to put myself into that. I don't have a dog, I don't have a website for my dogs. I don't breed very often.

Sandy Weaver: I might breed my Siberian. I tried actually late last year and it didn't work, but I might breed her again, but I don't have a website. You're not going to find me on a website, you're going to find me through networking. There are three different kinds of breeders. There are high volume breeders that are strictly for profit. 

Sandy Weaver: There are high volume breeders that are very good preservation breeders, but there are high volume breeders that are strictly for profit, and they sell their dogs through brokers. The dogs go across the country in trucks, just like any other commodity, they get loaded into vans like chickens in baskets and go across the country getting dropped off at this pet store, in this pet store, in this pet store to be sold.

Sandy Weaver: And they're, they're never socialized. They may or may not have seen a vet before they go to the pet store. The vet, the pet store probably has a vet that does, that's a clearing house for all these puppies that goes, Yep, no temperature. Okay. They look pretty good.  No cruddy eyes. They can go out on the sales floor.

Sandy Weaver: Those puppies not well bred. They may be purebred. But they are not well bred. That is a very key differentiator. Very key differentiator. So that's one type of breeder. And the second type of breeder is where I got my first Siberian from was a backyard breeder.

Sandy Weaver: That's what you're going to find if you're posting on next door or posting in those neighborhood kind of places. There’s somebody who's got a purebred this and another purebred this, and so they're making more purebred thises, and they're not doing the health screening test, which the high volume breeders are not doing either because that cuts into the profit margin.

Sandy Weaver: The backyard breeders, for the most part, have good hearts. They just don't know what they don't know. Siberian Huskies and standard poodles, many breeds have a problem with hip dysplasia. Many mixed breed dogs have a problem with hip dysplasia. Dogs just have a problem with hip dysplasia and there is a way to test before you breed to make sure that you're not breeding dogs that are dysplastic.

Sandy Weaver: The reason you don't want to breed dogs that are dysplastic is you produce puppies who are predisposed to being dysplastic, and that is a painful. debilitating and often very expensive problem for the owners. It's painful and debilitating for the dogs, and it's expensive for the owners down the line when they have to have surgery, and there are two or three different kinds of surgery you can do for dogs that have a big problem with dysplasia.

Sandy Weaver:  But, responsible, reputable preservation breeders do all the genetic screening tests that are recommended for their breed before they do a breeding. So they know there may be other problems that there's not a test for, but we also fund the research for the tests. But, so for Siberian Husky, we have hip dysplasia, we have several hereditary eye problems, and we also have epilepsy.

Sandy Weaver: There's a test for hip dysplasia. There's a test that you do one time in the dog's life and you have to wait until they're two years old. There's a test for the eye problems. You do that every year. While the dog is alive and you just, every year you go to the canine ophthalmologist, there's usually clinics. So we just go and we see the ophthalmologist, they look at the eyes, they dilate the pupils.

Sandy Weaver: They check in there for the different things that the dogs could have and say, Nope, your eyes are clear, boring eyes. See you next year. Or, Hmm, since last year to this year, your dog is showing some signs of corneal dystrophy. And so then you know, as a responsible breeder, you don't breed that. You don't breed a dog that.

Sandy Weaver: As a matter of fact, I got my standard poodle because he finished his championship and his breeder did his screening tests. And in poodles they do heart, they do thyroid, they do eyes, they do hips, and they do skin. And his hips came back as OFA fair. There's three levels of not dysplastic. There's fair, there's good, there's excellent.

Sandy Weaver: And OFA fair is the last passing grade before you get to, oh, there's a little bit of hip evidence of hip dysplasia. And so this breeder does not breed fair hips because it's too close to dysplastic, so she only breeds goods and excellence. So he was destined to not be part of her gene pool, so she had him at her house and I was networking through the Poodle Club of America breeder referral list,

Sandy Weaver: and I did not find her, but I emailed a woman who knew about Archie, who was Archer, but for me, he's too goofy to call him Archer. He's Archie. So, you know, she emailed this woman who called me out of the blue one night, and this woman grilled me. We talked for 15 to 20 minutes before she even told me about Archie's existence.

Sandy Weaver: She was trying, she was talking to me about some puppies that she had, and I kept saying, you know, I know they're wonderful puppies. I know they're fabulous. I don't want a puppy. I want something that knows how to stand on a table and get groomed because if I need to do it myself, which I tried, and I can do some of it, I got a great dog that already knows the, the ropes, and he's beautiful.

Sandy Weaver: You know, I mean, he's a, retired champion. He's gorgeous. So I love that part too. He's nice, he's easy on the eyes. But I didn't, the dog could be anywhere from two to five or six years old. I didn't care about the age. I just didn't want a puppy. I already had a young wild Siberian. I didn't need more of that energy in my house.

Sandy Weaver: So those breeders are the ones that are paying attention to the health and welfare, not just of their own animals, but of the puppies they produce. And quite often when you buy from a responsible, reputable preservation breeder who is doing the genetic testing, you're going to pay less money for that puppy or the same money as you would pay in a pet store to get something that is not well bred.

Sandy Weaver: Now people say, I don't need to go to a show breeder because I don't want to show my dog. Well, litters of puppies from you can have the best champion, best in show champion bred to a best in show champion, and you'll have puppies in that litter that are not show quality for whatever reason, they're still really well-bred dogs.

Sandy Weaver: They're well raised dogs, they're well socialized as they're puppies. They have good temperaments; they're going to be predictable. They're just not destined for the show ring. That's what's going to be available, and those are great puppies to get. And it could be something just as silly as with a poodle. The tail carriage is low, or the tail set is a little low.

Sandy Weaver: Does that matter in a pet home? No. It's just still going to wag its tail. It's still going to love you. You're still going to get a really healthy dog. So get it from somebody who shows their dogs and proves their dogs in the in the field. One of my favorite poodle breeders has champion poodles with titles on the end because they are duck retrieving fools.

Sandy Weaver: They have the working titles, they get, they do the work. This Siberian here, Monty, his head that's going, Woo. He was, he's been gone a long time and he was not my dog, but he was a dog I admired greatly. He finished the Iditarod, I believe three times. Now that's an almost 1200 mile race through really crazy conditions across Alaska.

Sandy Weaver: He finished it. He's also a champion. Was also a champion and did a lot of really nice winning. He was just a good, all around representative of the breed. So if you're going to buy from a breeder, if you're going to buy a purebred dog, buy from somebody who's proving their dogs, can the dog do what it was bred to do?

Sandy Weaver: Yes. And sometimes that's a lot what those other titles are for, Siberians don't chase bunnies. Well, they mean they do, but their job is to pull a sled. But I live in Atlanta, Georgia. We don't get a lot of snow here, so Casey did the working packed dog title and we're pending that that one has not been approved yet.

Sandy Weaver: It's still going to be looked at because it, they, they scrutinized and make sure that everything was, was absolutely right. But that's a way to prove that she has a work ethic and that's important. 

Amy Castro: So we're going to stay away from the pet stores, obviously, we're going to stay away from the backyard breeders if I don't have a network, is starting with the American Kennel Club with their breeder list.

Amy Castro: Is that a good place to begin your search for a layperson? 

Sandy Weaver: Okay? Yes, you can. You can go to the AKC marketplace and they have puppies, but they have litters all over the place there. Now, I will tell you, you will find all three kinds of breeders on the AKC marketplace. AKC registers, purebred dogs, so all three of these kind of breeders are ostensibly as long as their paperwork is right and they're not accidentally having, oops, litters, they're producing purebred dogs, 

 Sandy Weaver: that are registered through the American Kennel Club. American Kennel Club only certifies lineage, they don't certify quality. So you will, in the marketplace, find all three of these kinds of breeders. So look for the breeder medallions. Look for the extra things that that breeders have. Are they members of their parent club?

Sandy Weaver: Bonus, are they a breeder of merit? Bonus. Do, are they a breeder with heart? Bonus. Those are the kind of breeders you want to look for. And then as you read down further and see, they're talking about being part of a local club, being part of a breed club. When they post the pedigree, you can see that not just somewhere back in the fifth or sixth generation,

 Sandy Weaver: but right up front you got champions spread to champions, spread to when the grandparents are mostly champions, are all champions. And then the third generation, almost everybody's a champion. And if they've got titles on the other end of their name, which looks like alphabet soup, it's CD, RN, Dcat, da da da da da.

Sandy Weaver: Look, it's alphabet soup and that's what I call it But that just means that the dog is very accomplished, the dog has a really good work ethic, really cares about working with its person and isn't that the personality that you want in a dog? You want a dog that wants to play with you and wants to do stuff with you, 

Sandy Weaver: otherwise, you just have a yard ornament. What's the point in that? 

Amy Castro: Right. So let's, let's talk about, you had mentioned earlier before the, the doodles and I call it the doodle craze. There is a misconception, and you can correct me, maybe it's my misconception and I'm wrong, but I believe that there's a misconception that if I get a Labradoodle, that I'm going to get the best characteristics of the Labrador breed and the best characteristics of the poodle breed.

Amy Castro: And those two things are going to come together, and that's the dog I'm going to get for all of these doodle dogs. What is the truth on that? 

Sandy Weaver: That’s the Cinderella version.  Then they live happily ever after.  And that's not how genetics work. That's not how genetics work.

Sandy Weaver: So in the doodle breeds and in the something poo breeds, whatever it is, all those in, let's just call them intentional mixed breeds and they are intentional mixed breeds. You get some of everything. That's the way genetics work. 

One puppy in the litter, it might be like this Best In Show dog was bred to this Best In Show bitch and they produced this litter of puppies.

Sandy Weaver: And you might get one that might win a Best in Show, and maybe you'll get a couple more that are going to be great show dogs out of seven puppies. You might get three really standout puppies, and the other four will be some other level of quality because that's how genetics work. There's a lot, a lot of DNA, 

Sandy Weaver: different combinations. So when you say that I'm going to get a hypoallergenic dog, if I get one of those doodle things, well, you know what? If you need a hypoallergenic dog, you should probably get a poodle because they are. Labradors are not, Golden Retrievers are not, Siberian Huskies are not, there's husky doodles now, there’s Akita-doodles.

Sandy Weaver: That might be one of the prettiest ones I've ever seen. They're not, and so you've got the high volume breeders who are doing it for money, and then you've got the backyard breeders who don't know what they don't know, and they'll tell you anything to sell a puppy, because these puppies I'm telling, they're very expensive.

Sandy Weaver: I, I'm shocked at what people are willing to pay for a cute name. The man who accidentally created the world's first doodles and named them doodles, actually was a breeder of poodles here, Labrador over here. And he was producing two separate lines and two separate varieties of service dogs. And he had an oops litter.

Sandy Weaver: And so he, he knew that they weren't going to be predictable. Like the poodles are predictable, the Labrador are predictable, these Labradoodles were not going to be predictable. The puppies from that accidental cross, were not going to be predictable, but he wanted to find them good homes anyway, so he put up a webpage for them and he called the Labradoodles, and that's how the craze got started.

Sandy Weaver: Everybody fell in love with the name and they started talking about hybrid vigor, which is really not a thing. I mean, it is a thing, but it's not a thing. The problem is that a lot of the breeds that get mixed with poodles to produce the hypoallergenic best of both worlds share the same genetic problems that that breed does.

Sandy Weaver: So, Labradors, have a problem, a large problem with hip dysplasia. Labradors also have a problem with epilepsy. Poodles have a problem with hip dysplasia. Poodles also have a problem with epilepsy. You think if you produce that enough, you're going to end up with puppies that have epilepsy and maybe hip dysplasia?

Sandy Weaver: Yes, because those can combine just as easily as any of the other genetics can. So, just like if you want a purebred dog, you need to look for somebody who's doing the genetic screening tests, who's being a responsible breeder. 

There are people who are working to create a breed called Labradoodle, Golden Doodle,

Sandy Weaver: whatever the doodle, whatever the Malti-poo, there are people who are working to do it right, and it takes about 30 generations before something breeds true. And so there are people who are working on that right now. That's who you want to get your doodles from or your something poos from. That's who you want to get your intentional mixed breeds from and you'll find them because they are going to be happy to tell you that they've done the genetic testing and they can show you the certificates.

Sandy Weaver: Don't take somebody's word for it. If, a quote unquote breeder says, oh, I don't have to do the test because my dogs don't have that problem. Well, how do they know because they didn't do the test? Or if they say, oh, I'll give you a 10 year guarantee against hereditary defects. Well, that's really nice, but what's the guarantee going to do for this puppy that you bought that now has crippling hip dysplasia and needs to have its femoral heads taken off, which is, believe me, really  major surgery, very painful, very difficult for the dog to recover from a lot of expense for you if you don't have pet insurance, which oh by the way, I highly recommend. It’s somebody who is irresponsibly bringing animals into the world who are going to suffer because they're not doing, they're not spending a little bit of money before they do the breathing to make sure that their breathing stock is healthy and not likely to pass on problems.

Sandy Weaver: So no matter whether you want a pure bred or an intentional mixed bread, please look for the breeders who are doing the genetic tests and ask to see the certificates or go to the OFA website and do a search on the dogs there. 

Amy Castro: We're going to put a link up on the show notes for this.

Amy Castro: We'll put the instructions up there for that for sure. 

Sandy Weaver: Where the rubber meets the road from breeder to breeder, whether we're talking about intentional mixed breed or pure bred dogs, where the rubber meets the road is, are they spending money before they do the breeding to make sure that their breeding stock is healthy?

Sandy Weaver: If they are, that's where you want to get your puppy from. If they're not run screaming and hold onto your wallet.

Amy Castro: That's a that's a good way to wrap it up. What would you say, just to kind of pull all the, so we've talked about the pros and cons of different ways and places that you can find your best fit, canine companion.

Amy Castro: Any thoughts to kind of pull it all together? Just overall, what people should be doing in this process? 

Sandy Weaver: Dogs are wonderful. Dogs are wonderful additions to our life and dogs a lot of times people say, oh, they're grateful and they know they've been rescued and so it's a different kind of bond that's in the human's mind.

Sandy Weaver: Dogs don't think that way. Dogs are just, dogs are dogs. They just love their person. And whether you want a purebred dog or whether you want an intentional mixed breed dog, whether you want a mixed breed dog, it doesn't matter. Make sure that you've got home and time in your life and your heart to take good care of a dog before you get a dog.

Sandy Weaver: And then know that you've got that dog for its life, however long that may be. Sometimes it's 16 years. Sometimes it's 16 weeks. And just look for the people who are doing right by the dogs. There are rescues that are fabulous. There are rescues that are no better than a retail store. They just want to push dogs out the door,

Sandy Weaver: they don't care what happens to the dog afterwards. Go with somebody who cares about the dog. They have taken good care of the dog. They understand the dog's needs. They want to get the dog in the right place. If you feel like you're the right place for that dog, I want to hear your success story. I love happy ending.

Sandy Weaver: Yes, especially when you wag.

Amy Castro: Yes, that's right. That's right. Sandy, thank you so much for being with me today. You are a wealth of information that I hadn't even thought about, so I'm sure that this is going to be super helpful for anybody out there that's contemplating bringing a new dog into their family.

Sandy Weaver: Amy, thank you for the work that you do, and thanks for letting me spend some time with you today. You're fun. 

Amy Castro: Thanks, you are too. For those of you who want to know more about Sandy and her work, especially her work with veterinarians, we have an episode of the podcast where we talk to a veterinary social worker about some of the challenges that our veterinary folks are facing, and that's one of the things that Sandy does in her work is works directly with veterinarians and their teams.

Amy Castro: So check that out at www.centerforworkplacehappiness.com, and we'll put those resources up on the show notes so that people who want to look up information about a dog that they're considering on the OFA or Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website. We'll have that information on the show notes as well.

Amy Castro: Thank you all so much for listening today, and I hope that this helped you get a better understanding about your options for bringing in a new dog into your home and do your homework, and we're sure that you're going to find somebody that's a great fit for you. And for those who already have dogs or pets in your home, go ahead and give them a big hug for us this week.

Announcer: You've been listening to the Starlight Pet Talk podcast. We're glad you joined us to gain new insight on the many loving ways to adopt and care for your pets. Be sure to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode. And if you want more information, go to starlight pet talk.com because your pet can't talk.

Announcer: Be sure to join us next time for Starlight Pet Talk.